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Does FAR 13.5 override 15.506?


CHILINVLN

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On 11/30/2023 at 8:20 AM, ji20874 said:

FAR part 12 is NEVER used in conjunction with subpart 8.4 or 16.5 -- those are self-contained.

FAR part 12 definitely applies to many actions under FAR subparts 8.4 and 16.5 so I don’t understand this, but that’s okay. I hope you aren’t saying that FAR part 12 doesn’t govern actions under those subparts. If so, see CGI Fed., Inc. v. United States, 779 F.3d 1346 (Fed. Cir. 2015) (FAR Part 12 applied to the requests for quotes under the Federal Supply Schedule).

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On 11/29/2023 at 2:17 AM, dacaan said:

I think it is reasonable to call it a debrief if the solicitation borrows evaluation criteria from part 15 and a provision calls out a debrief. 

However, there is that unjust holding in Shtor, B-411284 which stripped the FAR 52.212-1(l) "debriefing" of any of it's part 15 rights including the timeliness exception for protests. MM should check out the Shtor GAO case--because it is pretty clear that there is no debriefing requirement in part 13 procurements even if FAR 52.212-1(l) is included. 

 

FAR 52.212-1(l) starts with “If a post-award debriefing is given to requesting offerors, the Government shall….” This doesn’t create an obligation to provide a debriefing nor an entitlement to receive one.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/16/2023 at 11:55 AM, C Culham said:

I have a slightly different twist. 

FAR 13.5 provides that FAR part 12 applies (FAR 13.500(b)).  FAR 12.201 allows for use of FAR 13, 14 or 15 for solicitation, evaluation and award. So the question is, to answer the OPs question, what FAR part was used for solicitation, evaluation, and award.  If FAR part 15, then 15.506 may well apply.  The OP could determine this in one easy step.  Was the solicitation a Request for Quotes (RFQ) or a Request for Proposals (RFP)?

The response the OP received from the agency is poorly written in my view.

Not sure I agree with the above analogy. FAR 13 isn’t solely applicable to RFQs. RFPs may also be utilized when soliciting and awarding through a simplified approach.

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12 hours ago, GABE said:

Not sure I agree with the above analogy. FAR 13 isn’t solely applicable to RFQs. RFPs may also be utilized when soliciting and awarding through a simplified approach.

  But if a RFP does not FAR part 15.2 provide the guidance not FAR part 13?  And are there not salient differences between a RFQ and RFP?

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On 12/23/2023 at 7:26 AM, C Culham said:

  But if a RFP does not FAR part 15.2 provide the guidance not FAR part 13?  And are there not salient differences between a RFQ and RFP?

There are differences regarding when the contract becomes binding but requesting proposals (or other offers) can still be done under FAR Part 13. Of course, you could use some FAR Part 15 procedures in a SAP solicitation (FAR 13.106-2(b)(1)) if you wanted, but it wouldn't be required.

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23 hours ago, Joe Bernier said:

There are differences regarding when the contract becomes binding but requesting proposals (or other offers) can still be done under FAR Part 13. Of course, you could use some FAR Part 15 procedures in a SAP solicitation (FAR 13.106-2(b)(1)) if you wanted, but it wouldn't be required.

Subtle and a long standing topic of discussion.  I have always wondered what one would put in a RFP conducted under FAR part 13 if not some salient stuff that either was from or mimics FAR part 15 stuff.

FAR part 2.101 "Offer means a response to a solicitation that, if accepted, would bind the offeror to perform the resultant contract. Responses to invitations for bids (sealed bidding) are offers called "bids" or "sealed bids"; responses to requests for proposals (negotiation) are offers called "proposals"; however, responses to requests for quotations (simplified acquisition) are "quotations," not offers. For unsolicited proposals, see subpart 15.6."

https://www.wifcon.com/arc/forum54.htm#:~:text=Although the normal procedure is,soliciting offers instead of quotes.

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1 hour ago, C Culham said:

Subtle and a long standing topic of discussion.  I have always wondered what one would put in a RFP conducted under FAR part 13 if not some salient stuff that either was from or mimics FAR part 15 stuff.

FAR part 2.101 "Offer means a response to a solicitation that, if accepted, would bind the offeror to perform the resultant contract. Responses to invitations for bids (sealed bidding) are offers called "bids" or "sealed bids"; responses to requests for proposals (negotiation) are offers called "proposals"; however, responses to requests for quotations (simplified acquisition) are "quotations," not offers. For unsolicited proposals, see subpart 15.6."

https://www.wifcon.com/arc/forum54.htm#:~:text=Although the normal procedure is,soliciting offers instead of quotes.

In addition to the references to soliciting offers in FAR Part 13, I think that the definition of solicitation clears up that SAP can use either: "Solicitation means any request to submit offers or quotations to the Government. Solicitations under sealed bid procedures are called "invitations for bids." Solicitations under negotiated procedures are called "requests for proposals." Solicitations under simplified acquisition procedures may require submission of either a quotation or an offer."

Regarding how to set-up the solicitation, you could certainly borrow from FAR Part 15, but could also just use the streamlined processes outlined in FAR 13.106 which states it is for both quotes and offers. I think the example of soliciting from a single source in the thread you linked could be a situation where requesting an offer makes more sense than requesting a quote.

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49 minutes ago, Joe Bernier said:

In addition to the references to soliciting offers in FAR Part 13, I think that the definition of solicitation clears up that SAP can use either: "Solicitation means any request to submit offers or quotations to the Government. Solicitations under sealed bid procedures are called "invitations for bids." Solicitations under negotiated procedures are called "requests for proposals." Solicitations under simplified acquisition procedures may require submission of either a quotation or an offer."

Regarding how to set-up the solicitation, you could certainly borrow from FAR Part 15, but could also just use the streamlined processes outlined in FAR 13.106 which states it is for both quotes and offers. I think the example of soliciting from a single source in the thread you linked could be a situation where requesting an offer makes more sense than requesting a quote.

We do not disagree but avoided is how do you craft a RFP under FAR part 13?  Using a simple example do you place any language in the RFP regarding debriefing and if so where do you grab it from?

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48 minutes ago, C Culham said:

We do not disagree but avoided is how do you craft a RFP under FAR part 13?  Using a simple example do you place any language in the RFP regarding debriefing and if so where do you grab it from?

If it's commercial, you could tailor FAR 52.212-1(l) to sync with FAR 13.106-3(d) replacing debriefings with the SAP Request for Information process if the award was based on factors other than just price. If non-commercial, you could just use similar language in your instructions to offerors.

This blog post provides a tailored example of FAR 52.212-1 for SAP eliminating the debriefing portion and replacing with RFI. Would just need to switch quoters back to offerors if going the RFP route.

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On 12/29/2023 at 1:32 PM, C Culham said:

Consistent with FAR 15.503(b)(2))?  Reference FAR 13.106-3(d).

My point being if RFP then FAR part 15 is a must to some degree.

Concur, that specific reference in FAR Part 15 would be applicable. But that'd be the same whether you were doing a RFQ or RFP under SAP.

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