Atlas STS Posted August 24, 2023 Report Share Posted August 24, 2023 This is my first Wifcon post so I apologize if my question suffers from my inexperience and I appreciate any info this forum can provide! If I should repost under the beginners section, please let me know. BACKGROUND: I am the proposal lead for a very small company that produces equipment for the US Navy. Our past orders have been under $500k so we are not experienced with many of the contract requirements for larger orders. We are currently bidding as a prime on a FFP solicitation over the $2M threshold, which has increased our proposal pricing requirements. Our product is not commercial, but we have never worked a CAS required contract as either a prime or sub. I think the solicitation was full and open, but we are the only source of these materials so we were the Sole Offeror. No cost/price data format requirement was provided by the contracting officer, but the buyer has been very patient with me as I went from only high level pricing information, which was sufficient for our past orders, to eventually providing Other than Certified Cost and Pricing Data in the same format that certified data is required, but without the certification statement. They acknowledge that as a small business, we are excepted from CAS, but have stated that that doesn't mean we can't certify our data. I don't think they've firmly ruled anything out, but we don't seem to be progressing in our negotiations as they research our exception request. QUESTION: We are in negotiations with the buyer, but with my inexperience, I'm afraid I'm not adequately communicating or justifying our position that we cannot provide Certified Cost and Pricing Data due to our non-CAS compliant accounting system and that we should not have to due to our nontraditional defense contractor status. The buyer and our PTAC advisor both seemed unfamiliar with the clauses that we provided seeking exception. Is there a better way we could communicate or defend our position that other than certified cost and pricing data should be sufficient? Are there additional resources we could provide the buyer to help explain our case? Am I reading the FAR and DFARS incorrectly? Key DFARS Clauses to Justify our Exception: DFARS 202.101 definition of a nontraditional defense contractor (NTDC) that we definitely meet DFARS 252.215-7010 (especially (b)(ii)(E)) which states that NTDC qualify for an exception from certified cost or pricing data DFARS 252.215-7013 which states that NTDC supplies and services can be treated as if they were commercial (although this is not required) Final Thoughts: Since we're the sole offeror and our bid is over the dollar thresholds, I absolutely understand the need for the buyer to get the data they need to ensure our pricing is fair and reasonable. However, I think our company is the exact reason that the NTDC exceptions were created. We have the technical manufacturing ability to provide material to the DOD that they can't get anywhere else, but we lack the administrative infrastructure to do so in the same way as the traditional defense contractors. We would love to complete this work and honestly, I'd probably certify the data if that's what it took to win the job, but as i understand it, we literally cannot do so with our current non-CAS compliant accounting system. I'd hate to put our company in legal jeopardy, especially if DFARS appears to have already provided a solution for companies like ours for this exact situation. However, I acknowledge that I'm not a FAR/DFARS expert so if I'm misreading or misunderstanding anything, I'd greatly appreciate a recalibration! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retreadfed Posted August 24, 2023 Report Share Posted August 24, 2023 41 minutes ago, Atlas STS said: we cannot provide Certified Cost and Pricing Data due to our non-CAS compliant accounting system I don't see a problem here. When you submit certified cost or pricing data all you are doing is submitting cost or pricing data that you have to the government and certifying that the data is current, complete and accurate. This has nothing to do with whether your accounting system is in compliance with the CAS or not. In fact, as a small business, you are exempt from all CAS requirements. Thus, the CAS do not apply to you and you do not have to comply with any CAS requirement unless a requirement is made applicable to you by some part of the FAR other than Part 30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas STS Posted August 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2023 Thank you for your response Retreadfed, I really appreciate it. Can you help me understand your feedback a little better? Are you saying that our interpretation of the NTDC exception is incorrect or are you saying that certifying cost and pricing data is not as big a deal as I'm expecting? My key concern is that I don't know what I don't know. I have shown what I read as a clear and direct exception, but the responses I'm getting from others, including yours, has me concerned I'm missing something. Do we not qualify for an exception in your estimation? If we do qualify for exception, but I certify our data anyway, I am subjecting our company to a potential audit and price reductions right? With no experience with either of those possibilities, I'm unsure how concerned I should be that my current accounting system is capable of meeting the reporting requirements of an audit, how much the audit would cost us, or what the potential outcome of an audit could do to our small business. My point being that my understanding is that certifying data is significant and has some potentially very expensive repercussions. Maybe these are overblown concerns based on inexperience, but I don't think they are without some merit. I can't imagine most companies voluntarily open themselves up to these types of risks if they meet any other exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Roberts Posted August 24, 2023 Report Share Posted August 24, 2023 (edited) We here do not know what your company's written request for an exception said, and what if anything the Government thought of it. It is an exception. If it were me, I would ask if the written request for an exception contained adequate information and if so, what the exception granting process is and its status. Edited August 24, 2023 by Neil Roberts add "and" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retreadfed Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 On 8/24/2023 at 1:38 PM, Atlas STS said: Do we not qualify for an exception in your estimation? I cannot answer that question because I do not have all the facts, such as a copy of the RFP, what discussions have taken place between your company and the government, exactly what your position on submission of certified cost or pricing data is, etc. What I was trying to convey to you is that there is no correlation between being able to certify cost or pricing data and having a CAS compliant accounting system. I simply don't understand what your concern is in this regard. As you have noted, you are a small business. As such you do not have to comply with the CAS, except to the extent that a portion of the CAS are incorporated in some other part of the FAR. For example, some of the cost principles in FAR Part 31 incorporate portions of some of the Standards. If you have a contract subject to the cost principles, you would have to comply with the portion of the CAS incorporated there, but no more. Further, you cannot be cited for a CAS non-compliance for failure to comply with the portions of the CAS included in the cost principles. Instead, you could have the cost disallowed. However, FFP contracts are not subject to the cost principles and they do not control what a contractor is paid under such contracts. Instead, the contractor is paid the fixed price regardless of what costs it incurs in performing the contract. But getting back to cost or pricing data, as mentioned before, your only obligation in this regard is to submit data that are current, complete, and accurate. The purpose behind this is to provide the government with the same information you have in regard to estimating what is a fair and reasonable price. If you meet this requirement, you really have little to be worried about. While you can be audited, that audit will be conducted by the government and is limited to the question of whether the data you submitted was current, complete and accurate. The audit does not measure whether your accounting system is compliant with the CAS. Because the audit will be conducted by the government, you do not pay for it, although you will incur some costs to support the audit, such as the cost of making your records available to the auditors and the time of personnel who interact with the auditors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Roberts Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Retreadfed said: The audit does not measure whether your accounting system is compliant with the CAS. @Atlas STS may be concerned with this small businesses' accounting system itself, not with whether it is compliant with CAS. Shouldn't the accounting system in use be capable of and report certain financial data to support the cost or pricing data requirements. What would a goverment audit report likely say if the accounting system is a shoebox that you have to sift through to hopefully find the support for the cost or pricing data submitted to the government? Edited August 25, 2023 by Neil Roberts bad thumb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Roberts Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 On 8/24/2023 at 10:38 AM, Atlas STS said: I'm unsure how concerned I should be that my current accounting system is capable of meeting the reporting requirements of an audit, @Atlas STS, does your company have a certified public accountant (CPA) report that it meets Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joel hoffman Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 3 hours ago, Retreadfed said: However, FFP contracts are not subject to the cost principles This is an over generality and not necessarily correct if you are referring to the cost principles in Part 31. See, for example 31.102 “Fixed-price contracts”, when cost analysis is used. Cost analysis isn’t confined to certified cost or pricing. It may be used when evaluating data other than certified cost or pricing to determine cost reasonableness when a fair and reasonable price cannot be determined through price analysis alone. (15.404-1 Proposal analysis techniques. (a)(4)). Edit: It would seem to me that a manufacturing company ought to be able to determine how much it costs to make something or buy something that it sells… Atlas said that it isn’t necessary to treat these items as commercial supplies or services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas STS Posted August 26, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2023 @Retreadfed what other facts are relevant for an exception for NTDC other than whether or not we're NTDC? What nuance am I missing? Do other exceptions, like commercial products and services have to prove anything other than they're commercial? I fully understand that CAS is not an issue here and I think the buyer concurs. I do appreciate the emphasis on ensuring we're submitting data that are current, complete, and accurate. If I only have to defend that what I have submitted adheres to those requirements as of this moment, perhaps certifying isn't as onerous as I'd thought. I do still hesitate that someone thought it important enough to carve out exceptions for the requirement for a variety of suppliers, including NTDC. Someone way more familiar with this than me thought that certifying data might prevent companies like ours from supplying DOD if we didn't have an exception. I still cannot fathom how any company would ever submit to a requirement when something specifically exempts it. I did take your advice and ask the buyer if they require anything beyond what we've submitted to process our exception. It is not the first time we've done so which is why my question for this forum was if I should be doing more or doing it differently. @Neil Roberts I cannot verify if our accounting method meets GAAP as I am not familiar with those requirements. We use software typical for very small businesses that don't routinely perform work for the government. It has been sufficient for our intermittent, smaller FFP contracts with the government. I thank you for understanding that this is a reason why I'm hesitant. I think everyone assumes anyone who does business with the government has dedicated CPAs/accountants, but in our case it has not been cost effective. We do plan on upgrading our system if we win this contract. If we were audited, I have quotes/email/etc. that I could provide on how we generated our estimate. What I won't have is a high grade accounting system that shows how we estimated our labor pools, rates, etc. @joel hoffman we absolutely know how much it costs to make something that we sell, but of course certified cost and pricing data asks for MUCH more than that. Even other than certified can ask for data in the same format as certified, which is what we provided in an effort to ensure the buyer has what they need in the format they need (although they didn't specify a format). All we asked is that it not be required to be certified data. It isn't necessary to treat these items as commercial, but per the FAR, they could. And that would also negate the need for certified data. Interestingly enough, everyone understands and readily accepts the exception for commercial; so what's the pushback for the exception for NTDC? I do appreciate everyone's feedback especially if my concerns are excessive or irrelevant based on how this stuff actually works. That being said, why is the answer to my question on how I communicate to the buyer that we want to exercise our clear exception met with pushback? I could certify our data, but why on earth should I if I don't have to? Why does this specific exception, which should apply to nearly every small business in the US, not merit the same consideration as any other? Shouldn't I advocate for my business to not unnecessarily accept costs and risks, even if they're trivial to larger businesses? As I considered just caving and certifying the data, I read FAR 15.406-2(e) and 15.403-4(c) which state that if an exception is later found to apply, the data must not be considered certified cost and pricing data, even if we certify it. Perhaps that further reinforces @Retreadfed point that certifying is really not a major issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joel hoffman Posted August 26, 2023 Report Share Posted August 26, 2023 ATLAS., let me clarify. I don’t disagree with you that you don’t have to provide and certify “cost or pricing data”, here. No pushback on my part. By the way- If your labor, for example, is based upon best estimates because you don’t have exact costs, even with (or without) “cost or pricing data”, you could identify what is judgmental data within your estimate and explain the basis of the estimate. Such judgmental data is not considered to be “cost or pricing data” for purposes of certification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joel hoffman Posted August 26, 2023 Report Share Posted August 26, 2023 On 8/24/2023 at 10:59 AM, Atlas STS said: DFARS 252.215-7010 (especially (b)(ii)(E)) which states that NTDC qualify for an exception from certified cost or pricing data ATLAS, is this DFARS clause in the solicitation? If yes, what is the government’s interpretation of it? If not in the solicitation, I suggest that you insist on its inclusion as part of the negotiation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Roberts Posted August 26, 2023 Report Share Posted August 26, 2023 11 hours ago, Atlas STS said: As I considered just caving and certifying the data, I don't know your place in this company. I sympathize with your reservations about the risk. Should you do so, In this case, I think you should consider having a company official sign it, if that is not already the practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retreadfed Posted August 26, 2023 Report Share Posted August 26, 2023 13 hours ago, Atlas STS said: why is the answer to my question on how I communicate to the buyer that we want to exercise our clear exception met with pushback? What exception are you talking about? Supplies or services provided by an NTDC are not automatically treated as commercial products or services. You acknowledged this in your original post when you cited to DFARS 252.215-7013. Also, see DFARS 212.102. Unless the contracting officer exercises the discretion granted by 212.102 to treat your product as a commercial product, you are not exempt from the requirement to submit certified cost or pricing data unless another exception applies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General.Zhukov Posted August 28, 2023 Report Share Posted August 28, 2023 So I think this is true: GVT & you agree that they cannot require you to provide certified cost/price data. Rather than demanding certification, they are asking for it. That is, they want you to voluntarily certify the data you have already provided to them. Correct? If this is what's going on, the path of least resistance for you is to have the company owner (not you) certify the data and be done with it. Speculation: They are struggling to get to fair and reasonable pricing. This is unfamiliar territory for a lot of contracting folks - over-budget for a non-commercial product, from a sole offeror, who is a very small non-traditional new-to-the-DoD company. This eliminates the easy and routine ways to get to fair and reasonable pricing. They are down to the seventh and "final" price analysis technique (FAR 15.404-1 b 2 vii) - other than certified cost or pricing data. So what is normally a very straightforward and simple analysis is, in your case, unusually complicated and looks, at a glance, like it probably should have certified data. Some approving official unfamiliar with this complicated situation (mistakenly) skims the award docs, and kicks them back for missing the certification letter. Rather than push back against that official, CO is going path of least resistance, and asking you for the certification so they can add that single-page file to the package, change nothing else, and re-route for approval. We will never know, but that's my guess. Aside: "Final" pricing technique in quotes because the FAR explicitly states these are examples, not an exhaustive list, but in practice, its sometimes treated as an exhaustive list. Like everyone assumes a written pricing analysis MUST refer to one of those techniques. Or worse - I've seen a checkboxes for which techniques were used, and there was no box for 'other.' (This was not my office, btw) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas STS Posted September 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2023 All, I really appreciate the feedback and I think you've convinced me that certifying the data isn't as problematic as I was expecting. I wanted to respond to everyone's points so far in case future questioners run across this thread, but there doesn't seem to be a magic bullet for this situation like I was hoping! @joel hoffman Thank you for clarifying. I think my biggest hesitation is that other than my material and subcontracting costs, which have defendable quotes, I don't know if I have the right documentation to defend an audit. It's based on a best estimate from previous jobs, but I don't know what an audit requires having never been through one. If my best estimates, as communicated in my proposal, are sufficient then that does take some pressure off of certifying. DFARS 252.215-7010 wasn't in the solicitation, but it referenced by 252.215-7008 (Only One Offer) which was. I will ask that it be added along with FAR 15.403-5 (Instructions for submission of certified cost or pricing data and data other than certified cost or pricing data). @Neil Roberts It's not a personal concern on certifying the data as we're so small that we're all intimately involved. I just don't want to recommend to our team, including our owner, that we certify and then it come back to bite us. Sometimes all it takes is one mistake to put a small business out of business for good. @General.Zhukov I imagine your assessment is pretty accurate. The buyer's team laughed when I said I didn't need to certify until I pointed out the clause excepting NTDC and then they were kind of intrigued because they'd never seen it before. They said they needed to research it, but that was months ago and they still seem to be expecting me to certify. They haven't firmly denied my request yet, but I think it's holding up progress toward award. It seems clear to me that my company is excepted per 252.215-7010 and further that FAR 15.403-5 clearly states that even if certified, excepted company data will be treated as uncertified. In my mind, that makes an audit either less likely or easier to defend. Further, if "certifying" just means this is the best info we have right now and doesn't hold me to changes once we start producing our product, that also seems to reduce the impact of certifying. Perhaps we've already incurred the most difficult part of certification by providing our data in the same format as certified data. Again, thank you all for your advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joel hoffman Posted September 3, 2023 Report Share Posted September 3, 2023 8 hours ago, Atlas STS said: All, I really appreciate the feedback and I think you've convinced me that certifying the data isn't as problematic as I was expecting. I wanted to respond to everyone's points so far in case future questioners run across this thread, but there doesn't seem to be a magic bullet for this situation like I was hoping! @joel hoffman Thank you for clarifying. I think my biggest hesitation is that other than my material and subcontracting costs, which have defendable quotes, I don't know if I have the right documentation to defend an audit. It's based on a best estimate from previous jobs, but I don't know what an audit requires having never been through one. If my best estimates, as communicated in my proposal, are sufficient then that does take some pressure off of certifying. DFARS 252.215-7010 wasn't in the solicitation, but it referenced by 252.215-7008 (Only One Offer) which was. I will ask that it be added along with FAR 15.403-5 (Instructions for submission of certified cost or pricing data and data other than certified cost or pricing data). @Neil Roberts It's not a personal concern on certifying the data as we're so small that we're all intimately involved. I just don't want to recommend to our team, including our owner, that we certify and then it come back to bite us. Sometimes all it takes is one mistake to put a small business out of business for good. @General.Zhukov I imagine your assessment is pretty accurate. The buyer's team laughed when I said I didn't need to certify until I pointed out the clause excepting NTDC and then they were kind of intrigued because they'd never seen it before. They said they needed to research it, but that was months ago and they still seem to be expecting me to certify. They haven't firmly denied my request yet, but I think it's holding up progress toward award. It seems clear to me that my company is excepted per 252.215-7010 and further that FAR 15.403-5 clearly states that even if certified, excepted company data will be treated as uncertified. In my mind, that makes an audit either less likely or easier to defend. Further, if "certifying" just means this is the best info we have right now and doesn't hold me to changes once we start producing our product, that also seems to reduce the impact of certifying. Perhaps we've already incurred the most difficult part of certification by providing our data in the same format as certified data. Again, thank you all for your advice! If your estimates are judgmental, not based upon exact costs (but rather best estimates), you simply identify what is judgmental within the estimate/proposal. Judgmental data generally isn’t considered to be “cost or pricing data” for the purposes of certification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retreadfed Posted September 4, 2023 Report Share Posted September 4, 2023 (edited) On 9/3/2023 at 2:41 PM, Atlas STS said: If my best estimates, as communicated in my proposal, are sufficient then that does take some pressure off of certifying. Atlas, Joel is correct in stating that estimates are not cost or pricing data. However, the facts upon which those estimates are based are cost or pricing data. See FAR 2.101 definition of cost or pricing data "While they do not indicate the accuracy of the prospective contractor’s judgment about estimated future costs or projections, they do include the data forming the basis for that judgment." Thus, the facts relating to your "previous jobs" that were used to formulate your estimates are probably cost or pricing data that should be disclosed to the government. If they are not, you may get a finding of defective pricing if this contract is audited for that purpose. On 9/3/2023 at 2:41 PM, Atlas STS said: DFARS 252.215-7010 wasn't in the solicitation, Is FAR 52.215-20 in the solicitation? On 9/3/2023 at 2:41 PM, Atlas STS said: It seems clear to me that my company is excepted per 252.215-7010 What language in this provision exempts an NTDC from submission of certified cost or pricing data? I can find no such language. The only mention of an NTDC in that provision deals with the CAS. However, if you can convince the government that you are exempt, more power to you. On 9/3/2023 at 2:41 PM, Atlas STS said: I will ask that it be added along with FAR 15.403-5 FAR 15.403-5 is not a solicitation provision or contract clause. It is a FAR section that provides guidance to contracting officers. The instructions for submission of certified cost or pricing data are contained in FAR Table 15-2. That Table is incorporated by DFARS 252.215-7010. Edited September 4, 2023 by Retreadfed clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joel hoffman Posted September 4, 2023 Report Share Posted September 4, 2023 Retreadfed is correct that the provisions you are referring to don’t exempt you from the requirements for cost or pricing data if your items are not commercial products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Roberts Posted September 5, 2023 Report Share Posted September 5, 2023 On 8/24/2023 at 8:59 AM, Atlas STS said: DFARS 252.215-7010 (especially (b)(ii)(E)) which states that NTDC qualify for an exception from certified cost or pricing data My take on (E) is that it is a subparagraph of commercial product or commercial service and only one of several pieces of potential information (see subparagraphs above it), for those who are applying to have an exception granted for its commercial product or service. In any event it is government discretionary to grant it, not a contractor right. I read (A) thru (E) as if the words "commercial product or commercial service" appeared in front of the word "items." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas STS Posted September 5, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2023 @Retreadfed thank you for clarifying on needing to supply underlying data to go into predicted data. FAR 52.215-20 is NOT in the solicitation. 252.215-7010 excepts NTDC from cost and pricing data based on their lack of CAS. Thank you for clarifying on 15.403-5. I've had a hard time distinguishing between contract clauses and CO instructions. Many clauses aren't in the solicitations, but are part of FAR/DFARS so I'm not certain what applies. @Neil Roberts and @joel hoffman I concede that (E) falls under the commercial items and services and that might sink my case. However, it makes zero sense to have an exception for NTDC under the commercial exception. Why would NTDC need an exception if they're already excepted as commercial parts and services? My guess is that it was intended to be 252.215-7010(b)(iii) so that it stands coequal with "prices set by law" and "commercial". That's the only thing that makes logical sense if you research the intent of the NTDC exception (bringing in other suppliers of non-commercial products and services by recognizing small business suppliers won't have the same administrative infrastructure as traditional defense contractors). I guess it would take pairing 252.215-7013 (Supplies and Services Provided by Nontraditional Defense Contractors) which allows (but not require) CO to treat NTDC as if they were commercial and 252.215-7010(b)(ii) which makes commercial parts and services excepted (as well as NTDC excepted). Again, no logical reason to have NTDC excepted if CO already has the ability to treat NTDC as commercial which has its own separate exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retreadfed Posted September 5, 2023 Report Share Posted September 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Atlas STS said: 252.215-7010 excepts NTDC from cost and pricing data based on their lack of CAS. That is not true. DFARS 252.215-7010 contains no exemption from submission of certified cost or pricing data by NTDCs. What the clause does is require NTDCs to provide a statement that they are not performing and have not performed a CAS covered contract in the past year. This is nothing more than a statement that the NTDC is such a creature. Moreover, the mere fact that a contractor is not performing a CAS covered contract does not exempt the contractor from submission of certified cost or pricing data. If you think DFARS 252.215-7010 exempts NTDCs from submission of certified cost or pricing data, please quote the specific language that does so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joel hoffman Posted September 6, 2023 Report Share Posted September 6, 2023 (edited) @Atlas, an audit of certified cost or pricing data appears to be the cause of your primary anxiety from rereading your posts. Let me try to put you at ease. I don’t think that the odds of a post-award audit by DCAA on a FFP contract for $2 million are very high these days. And a pre-award audit would be on uncertified data. I doubt if DCAA will bother to agree to perform an audit on this low a price. Even if they do a pre-award audit, you don’t certify cost or pricing until after agreement on the contract price. There is no such thing as “defective uncertified cost or pricing data”. Unless you are obviously, grossly lying, the auditors would likely simply question costs or state that they are unsupported during a pre-award audit. I think your concerns are unrealistic here, especially if you identify the judgmental aspects of your proposal estimate. Edited September 6, 2023 by joel hoffman Refined Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joel hoffman Posted September 6, 2023 Report Share Posted September 6, 2023 Based upon my experience over the past 25 plus years, we weren’t able to get much if any DCAA audit assistance on larger proposal amounts than what you identified here. That included requests for desk audits of G&A or audits of key subs by their plant DCAA auditors. I don’t think that their workload or resources are any better today… I miss the days when we had our own USACE auditors up to the mid 90’s for civil works projects and resident, in Kingdom DCAA auditors on our Saudi Arabian Assistance Program in the 1980’s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joel hoffman Posted September 6, 2023 Report Share Posted September 6, 2023 Realize also that they revised “TINA” to “Truthful Cost or Pricing Data”. So if you are truthful, you shouldn’t worry too much… 🤠 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas STS Posted September 6, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2023 @Retreadfed DFARS 252.215-7010(b) is titled "Exceptions from certified cost or pricing data." (1) In lieu of submitting certified cost or pricing data, the Offeror may submit a written request for exception by submitting the information described in paragraphs (b)(1)(i) and (ii) of this provision. The whole purpose of (b) is to list all the exceptions from certified data and it includes an exception for NTDC with their CAS current/history as the basis for claiming that exception. (c) explains what is required for certified data and (d) does the same for uncertified data. @joel hoffman We had a DCAA auditor spend about 3 full days inspecting our last order which was a major blow to my schedule and it was for an order under $500k. He never found any issues, but just the inspection, which I didn't adequately account for, was not trivial. I'm trying to envision the admin/financial version of that and it gives me nightmares! I'm not worried about being dishonest. I'm worried that I won't have documented an assumption or a calculation sufficiently to be accepted and they'll find a way to find us delinquent. Again, the fear is of my ignorance of the process, not the process itself. I'll research how to avoid defective data. I have to be honest, reading this does not give me a happy feeling: https://www.cohnreznick.com/insights/what-is-defective-pricing-what-does-an-auditor-look-for Must be current, accurate, and complete. How will I know if they're complete until I'm audited? Does my accounting system or cost estimation system even meet the standards for being complete? How would I know? If we're found to be deficient, we'll pay price change plus interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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