A old friend of mine, a senior and very experienced systems acquisition person with one of the armed services, sent me the following text yesterday:

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Here's a question I want you to think about... Given the day and age we live in, if I were to hire [a smart person] straight out of [a good college]... Could that individual develop and learn the [contracting] business in a pure virtual environment?

Apparently, some people are promoting that idea because prospective new hires want to work remotely.

What do you think? How would you answer?

12 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:

What do you think?

At my age I do have difficulty grasping the "pure" virtual environment so I admit that my response to the second question is biased.

13 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:

How would you answer?

I do not think an individual can develop and learn contracting in a "pure" virtual enviroment.  Communication via human interaction is the issue.  While there are many tools in the virtual environment that assist in communication I still believe to this day that my knowledge, skills and abilities were enhanced by face to face communication.  Communication face to face with mentors, peers, bosses, etc. on the agency side and with contractors at their offices, job sites, and in other environments (such as USACE partnering).  There is "that something" that is gained by human interaction and "that something" is very important to the contracting business in my view. #IYKYK

Yes.  I taught classes remotely during Covid and it worked reasonably well.  The material was divided between online lectures, reading, exercises, and student team activities.  The course graphic developers were very skilled and did a remarkable with material presentation.  The lectures, discussions, and team exercises were done using virtual tools like Zoom, Teams, Adobe Connect, etc.  

As far as actual remote working, I think it takes a special combination of individual traits to be successful.  Many agencies now literally are working virtually.  Even if an 1102 is in the office, most likely the people they interface with like program personnel, budget, finance, legal, technical, etc. are working remotely to vary degrees.  

1 hour ago, formerfed said:

I taught classes remotely during Covid and it worked reasonably well.  

The question put to me was about learning, not teaching. They are not the same thing.

What do you mean by "it worked reasonably well"? You taught reasonably well or they learned reasonably well?

I'm asking for clarification about what you said. I'm not disputing the truth of it.

29 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:

What do you mean by "it worked reasonably well"? You taught reasonably well or they learned reasonably well?

The majority of students learned what was expected.  They did well.  But a small proportion (maybe 10-15%) found ways to “cheat” - sign in to online sessions but didn’t stay around during lectures, copied exercise responses from online sources and submitted as their own work, or had coworkers complete exams for them.  Those same people conveniently found reasons for not participating in team assignments.  Usually the excuses were technical like they couldn’t log on

4 hours ago, C Culham said:

I do not think an individual can develop and learn contracting in a "pure" virtual enviroment. 

I agree. That's what I told my friend.

39 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:

I agree. That's what I told my friend.

So do I. Good. 

@Vern Edwards Vern, I think an objective answer should not be based from people like Carl, Joel, me or yourself.  Collectively there’s probably close to 200 years of experience there but probably lots of biases based upon what worked historically.  I hate to admit it but I am old.  Students today learn differently.  The college experience is much different.  Some classes aren’t even taught in a big lecture hall but the professor presents remotely.  Interaction with professors is done using texts or PMs.  So graduates are used to this mode.

9 hours ago, Vern Edwards said:

What do you think? How would you answer?

Yes, I think they could. They would learn differently, but they could still learn.

14 hours ago, Don Mansfield said:

They would learn differently, but they could still learn.

What does it mean "to learn"? When can we say that someone has learned contracting? How do we know what and how well they have learned?

 

 

15 hours ago, formerfed said:

Vern, I think an objective answer should not be based from people like Carl, Joel, me or yourself.

Personal experience.  Student in her final year of a 4 year college degree.  A relative.   End of semester.  Sitting in a bar with her.   She had a laptop and a cell phone with her to "take" the final.  She pulled up the "virtual exam" on her computer, using her cell phone with this app https://socratic.org/ on it, would photo the mulitple choice question, the app would provide plausible answers of which she would read and then choose the multiple choice response.   I watched over her shoulder.  Many times almost the exact wording would come up in the plausible response.  The class - an upper division course in entomology.   

What I learned  - I think the professor might have used the app to develop the test.  I also learned about "Google Eye" at the same time.   Admittedly I am old with the new  virtual world of "learning" unfolding in front of me.   But I still wonder if it all makes up for social interaction?  Time will tell I guess. 

16 hours ago, formerfed said:

@Vern Edwards Vern, I think an objective answer should not be based from people like Carl, Joel, me or yourself.  Collectively there’s probably close to 200 years of experience there but probably lots of biases based upon what worked historically.  I hate to admit it but I am old.  Students today learn differently.  The college experience is much different.  Some classes aren’t even taught in a big lecture hall but the professor presents remotely.  Interaction with professors is done using texts or PMs.  So graduates are used to this mode.

@formerfed @C Culham @Don Mansfield @joel hoffman

 

Guys, I have to take a hit here for not being clear.

The person who asked me was not just talking about learning in virtual classrooms but about learning while working in at home, in a virtual office, instead of in an office with other people actually present.

Let me clarify: If you hire a smart young person right out of college, can they learn the job while working at home, at a distance, instead of in an actual office?

My personal feeling is that a smart young person right out of college can learn contracting virtually. Most offices I’ve been around didn’t have a sound training programs nor trainers. Training topics were abstract and not comprehensive or fact-based. Instead, newbies learned by doing whatever the culture dictated.

That being said, I think individuals generally learn more and faster in an office. They are exposed to more tasks and happenings. Now, the quality of what they learn (norms and traditions rather than rules-based contracting and logic) can be argued.

36 minutes ago, Jamaal Valentine said:

Most offices I’ve been around didn’t have a sound training programs nor trainers. Training topics were abstract and not comprehensive or fact-based.

@Jamaal Valentine How much of learning contracting is taught in "training programs"? What percentage?

Is part of "learning contracting" learning how to deal with the people in the offices that contracting supports? Doesn't it include learning some of what they know and about how they think and interact with contracting? Doesn't it include casual conversations with them and with contractors, and with other contracting personnel?

In my experience, very little of what I learned about contracting was from formal training. For instance, I learned about line items, a topic that I consider essential, by arguing with other contracting people around the water cooler. I was taught about equitable adjustments through casual conversations with the head of the contract review office. I learned more at the Officers' Club over beers than I learned in classrooms.

How do you do that kind of learning in a virtual environment?

Not disputing, just asking.

50 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:

Let me clarify: If you hire a smart young person right out of college, can they learn the job while working at home, at a distance, instead of in an actual office?

I apologize for my distraction as I think I understood the question from the get go.

My response is essentially the same as my first response in this thread.    

19 minutes ago, C Culham said:

My response is essentially the same as my first response in this thread.    

@C Culham Thanks, Carl.

1 hour ago, Vern Edwards said:

Let me clarify: If you hire a smart young person right out of college, can they learn the job while working at home, at a distance, instead of in an actual office?

Yes, I think so. I think if they participated in a good Community of practice--like Wifcon--they would have opportunities for incidental learning. Also, you may be overvaluing learning in-person in an office. I remember you once  described this as learning by rumor and innuendo. A lot of contract specialists find the information they need by Googling the topic and adding "Wifcon" at the end.

Also, if I were to go into a random contracting office today I would not be confident that contracting officers would understand line items or equitable adjustments. Just think of all those contracts with "ODC" CLINs.

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Is part of "learning contracting" learning how to deal with the people in the offices that contracting supports? Doesn't it include learning some of what they know and about how they think and interact with contracting? Doesn't it include casual conversations with them and with contractors, and with other contracting personnel?

Contracting should involve assisting agencies and their program offices in successful mission accomplishment.  That involves two things - contracting people knowing the mission and program offices they support and collaborating with program offices so they see contracting as a partner.  It takes a long time for that to happen and especially the latter.  That can’t be done well working remotely.

Some of my learning came through being mentored in my first three years.  My intern experience in the first couple years was truely amazing.  I supported a senior contract specialist (my mentor) and his boss through handling a number of claims, disputes that went to the ASBCA where I was called as a witness, responding to a GAO audit on defective pricing and negotiating settlement with the contractor, and handling a contractors request for relief under PL 86-804, Amendment without Consideration, with the contractor being essential to the national defense.  While I was just beginning in this field and tried to absorb knowledge like a sponge, these experiences and all the details became embedded in my memory even now. 

Otherwise I believe the job can and probably needs to be learned remotely.  That’s the future regardless of what job we have.

2 hours ago, Don Mansfield said:

I remember you once  described this [OJT] as learning by rumor and innuendo.

I did say that, and I still do. That's why you cannot rely on it too heavily.

I think learning contracting entails on-the-job observation, hands-on experience, talking to people (which is how you gain essential tacit knowledge, i.e., tricks of the trade), supervisor and peer feedback, coursework, and reading. I'm not convinced that you can get all of that in a purely virtual environment. A lot of know-how gets passed on in off-the-cuff conversation.

On 7/19/2024 at 9:41 AM, Vern Edwards said:

How much of learning contracting is taught in "training programs"? What percentage?

I don’t know. Some people rely exclusively on their training (what they are fed). Others use it to form attitudes and opinions about topics. Some take what they are fed and inspect it … attempting to separate the wheat from the chaff.

On 7/19/2024 at 9:41 AM, Vern Edwards said:

Is part of "learning contracting" learning how to deal with the people in the offices that contracting supports? Doesn't it include learning some of what they know and about how they think and interact with contracting? Doesn't it include casual conversations with them and with contractors, and with other contracting personnel?

Yes, yes, and yes. I spend a good amount of time talking to others about contracting (learning). Most conversations are not face-to-face in person. This is not my preference, but it works. (I’m supposed to be at NCMA World Congress in Seattle, but my flights are delayed so I’ll attend the first day virtually).

To be clear, I don’t have precise answers to your questions. I’m relying on feelings and anecdotes. I feel that I learned more from self-study (e.g., Wifcon posts, discussions and follow-up research) than any DAU course or in-house office training.

Now, I have had excellent training from commercial providers such as you and Don Mansfield. I’ve taken some in-person and others virtually. They’ve all been great.

However, much of what I learned in the office related to so-called soft skills, local contract writing systems, and internal agency guidance. Offices are good for those things, but people share screens and use virtual desktops and shared files to tackle some of that.

Again, in my experience, offices are not a great place to learn about the realities (rules) of government contracting. When I was Chief of a Contracting Office (several subordinate offices), I had everyone leave any activity-wide training event that was full of myth-information. In-turn, we had Don teach Simplified Acquisition Procedures.

For me, learning government contracting could be done virtually. We simply need good trainers and curriculum developers. A newbie with good material, a learning plan, and a few peers/mentors who know how to learn/teach/guide, could learn the business.

 

Thanks, Jamaaal! That was a great thoughtful response, and very helpful.

Vern