Jump to content

FSS purchase of HVAC unit


Recommended Posts

There are many companies on the schedule that supply HVAC units.  In fact there are a couple that provide the installation of this equipment.  We are hoping to go out to those suppliers to supply and install the HVAC Units.  Is this still considered a service? Is this an appropriate use of the Schedules?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Don Mansfield said:

For what purpose are you trying to classify the acquisition as a supply or service? 

For instance is it a straight replacement “unit” for a failed existing unit? Since likely buying a commercial item to replace an existing one, the associated installation work could be an “installation service”, in support of the commercial item supply purchase in my opinion.  The major share of the expense is generally the new equipment and refrigerant. Is that consistent with the description in the FSS? 

Or are you adding a new (e.g., additional) “system”, including the unit and associated electrical circuits, wiring, controls and mechanical ductwork, registers, etc. ? This would likely be be an alteration to an existing real property asset (construction). 

I’ve individually replaced six outside A/C units plus their air handling units  in the attic of our church over the past 1 1/2 years as old units failed or began to fail. When either the inside or outside parts of the system fail, we generally have to replace both due to having to match coils, etc. to the currently available refrigerants.  Although not government work, it’s pretty much straightforward supply and service work in my opinion. They reuse the existing,  in-situ electrical service and ductwork, registers, etc.

It’s not an alteration to the existing building systems. Most of the cost is for the new equipment and refrigerant. I think the labor was only about 20-35% of the cost at most. Our new units cost between $8500-$16000, including a church discount. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Michele Valenza said:

We are hoping to go out to those suppliers to supply and install the HVAC Units.  Is this still considered a service? Is this an appropriate use of the Schedules?

I'm not sure what you are asking, but have you looked at the definition of "supplies" in FAR 2.101?

Quote

Supplies means all property except land or interest in land. It includes (but is not limited to) public works, buildings, and facilities; ships, floating equipment, and vessels of every character, type, and description, together with parts and accessories; aircraft and aircraft parts, accessories, and equipment; machine tools; and the alteration or installation of any of the foregoing.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe adding in the definition of supply from FAR part 37 might be helpful too.   FAR 37.101 in part "Service contract means a contract that directly engages the time and effort of a contractor whose primary purpose is to perform an identifiable task rather than to furnish an end item of supply...."

7 hours ago, Don Mansfield said:

For what purpose are you trying to classify the acquisition as a supply or service? 

This is very pertinent and a response would help.  Why?

 

On 7/13/2021 at 5:43 AM, Michele Valenza said:

Is this still considered a service?

Depends.  As Don has asked the answer might be mixed if you are asking with regard to application of labor laws.

On 7/13/2021 at 5:43 AM, Michele Valenza said:

Is this an appropriate use of the Schedules?

If the schedule provides for installation it would seem so.  If it does not it still might be appropriate but the installation effort would be considered a "open market" item and as such FAR 8.402(f) would apply.     

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, ji20874 said:

If you are buying an item of supply, and you want the contractor who furnishes it to also deliver and install it, that seems to me as a general rule to still be a supply contract.

I agree. What's more, I think it's Contracting 101. The OP refers to "HVAC units." That could mean anything. But the last HVAC unit I had installed at my home was installed by the supplier of the unit. I also had an emergency outside generator installed at my home, and that, too, was installed by the supplier. In any case, the FAR definition of "supplies" says what it says: "and the alteration or installation of any of the foregoing."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The last time a similar question was asked, it turned out after the typical clarification exercise that it was an alteration, not replacement and they were adding several additional a/c units, complete with new ducting, controls, electrical and considerable carpentry work. 

That is why I mentioned the difference between supply and construction.  I do agree that one for one replacement of A/C “unit” would likely be a supply acquisition, with installation services.

In my experience, the equipment and materials constitute at least 65-80% of the replacement cost.

EDIT: I just noticed that Michelle is referring to multiple “units”.  At least three of us asked what the purpose or context of the question was.

Generally, the FSS are for commercial products and services.  The schedules that I reviewed awhile back specifically stated that they are not for “construction”.

Michelle asked whether “this is still a service” and “is this an appropriate use of the schedules?”.

Therefore, the answers depend upon the purpose and details/context of the questions.

Edited by joel hoffman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, joel hoffman said:

Michelle asked whether “this is still a service” and “is this an appropriate use of the schedules?”.

Therefore, the answers depend upon the purpose and details/context of the questions.

Joel you may find the below quote interesting.....Reference is https://www.gsa.gov/cdnstatic/SCHEDULE_56_-_ORDERING_GUIDE.pdf  I won't vouch for its currency but your comment reminded me of this as an example.   

 

 

"10. How does GSA define "Construction", "Ancillary Repair & Alteration", and "Minor Construction"? Complex construction is not approved under GSA MAS contracts. Schedule 56 includes commercial products that may require services in conjunction with the purchase of the product. There are 3 basic types of services available:  Ancillary Service for functions such as set up, simple installation, training, etc.(excludes construction and services subject to the Service Contract Act)  Ancillary Repair and Alteration requiring minor construction (includes Davis Bacon and construction clauses)  Installation and Site Preparation requiring Construction, which is necessary, to install a Pre-Engineered or Prefabricated Building or Structure, (includes Davis Bacon and Construction Clauses). Ancillary Repair & Alteration SINs are available in conjunction with purchase of products that require minor construction to be installed properly, such as minor construction necessary to install a door or window, repair drywall, or paint a room. SIN categories are also available to provide installation and site prep requiring construction, services ordered in conjunction with purchase of products to be installed under the Schedule contract—i.e., a prefabricated building, solar energy system, roofing, generator, transformer, etc. Davis Bacon and Construction Clauses are not incorporated into Schedule 56 contracts offering installation and site preparation requiring construction and R&A. GSA negotiates fixed rates for services (rates include consideration of prevailing Davis Bacon wage rates). The applicable Davis Bacon wage determination is incorporated at the task order level, when place of performance has been determined."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, Carl.  Yes, there is a distinction between “services” or “supply” with ancillary installation and minor construction when certain schedules can accommodate such minor construction activities.

At any rate, I think my statements and request for clarification are still relevant and applicable here.   The tickler was Michelle’s mention of “HVAC units”, in the plural, without any further context, including identifying the applicable schedule. That hints of more than just buying a replacement unit for a repair.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No offense to Michelle. But I have seen a lot of “Ask a Professor”questions and questions in the WIFCON forum that were/are very broad with little or no context provided. In the late 1990’s and early 2000’s, I often complained to the AAP administrator about the poor quality of both the questions and answers.

Finally, probably to shut me up,  they asked if I would take over the A/E and Construction topic area.  I agreed and was the A/E and Construction “professor” for about five year period, both before and for awhile after retiring from active civil service. During that stint, I would contact most questioners to ask and discuss the specifics with them in detail before posting an answer to the AAP website.  I often included clarification of the question in the answer. Any public Q&A site can be overly general, misleading and harmful without putting the Q and A in proper context.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...