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Vern Edwards

Small Business policy Is based on a lot of hooey

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I hid some language in some posts and hid other posts altogether. However, I did not ban anyone.  There are studies on the internet that will either support or not support just about any program in Part 19 of the FAR.  If you want to discus these programs, use one of the studies based on factual data to support your case.  Don't use your opinons or gut feelings.

On 6/16/18, I revisited the posts in this forum.  I made more deletions.  I anticipate making more.

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PepeTheFrog's analysis and opinion of the 8(a) program was entirely deleted. Oh, well. It's a private forum. 

It seems like the 8(a) program, a government contracts program, is too controversial to be discussed in a government contracts forum. Could it be because the 8(a) program is explicitly based on race?

Read Vern Edwards' accurate quotations of the regulations, especially the rebuttable presumption part, which in his opinion, somehow disproves that the 8(a) program is based explicitly on race. "Identity and culture" can also be considered, not just race. Ah! That clears things up. Nothing to see here, folks. The Emperor's clothes are magnificent. 

PepeTheFrog's position is that the 8(a) program is explicitly based on race and is carried out in reality based on race, and that anyone who disagrees is [censored].


On 6/14/2018 at 11:02 AM, Vern Edwards said:

I don't know how you reached your conclusion, that the 8(a) Program is "explicitly" based on race. In order to be eligible for 8(a) status a firm must be a small disadvantaged business (SDB). The eligibility rules are in 13 CFR 124.

In order to an SDB a small firm must be at least 51 percent unconditionally owned by a socially and economically disadvantaged person. According to the rules, a socially disadvantaged person is:


Socially disadvantaged individuals are those who have been subjected to racial or ethnic prejudice or cultural bias within American society because of their identities as members of groups and without regard to their individual qualities. The social disadvantage must stem from circumstances beyond their control.

Race is only one source of social disadvantage. Other sources are ethnic identity and culture. The census bureau considers race and ethnicity to be "two separate and distinct concepts." According to the American Heritage Dictionary, ethnic means:


Of, relating to, or characteristic of a group of people sharing a common cultural or national heritage and often sharing a common language or religion.

According to SBA regulations:


(b) Members of designated groups.

(1) There is a rebuttable presumption that the following individuals are socially disadvantaged: Black Americans; Hispanic Americans; Native Americans (Alaska Natives, Native Hawaiians, or enrolled members of a Federally or State recognized Indian Tribe); Asian Pacific Americans (persons with origins from Burma, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Brunei, Japan, China (including Hong Kong), Taiwan, Laos, Cambodia (Kampuchea), Vietnam, Korea, The Philippines, U.S. Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands (Republic of Palau), Republic of the Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, Guam, Samoa, Macao, Fiji, Tonga, Kiribati, Tuvalu, or Nauru); Subcontinent Asian Americans (persons with origins from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, the Maldives Islands or Nepal); and members of other groups designated from time to time by SBA according to procedures set forth at paragraph (d) of this section. Being born in a country does not, by itself, suffice to make the birth country an individual's country of origin for purposes of being included within a designated group.

(2) An individual must demonstrate that he or she has held himself or herself out, and is currently identified by others, as a member of a designated group if SBA requires it.

(3) The presumption of social disadvantage may be overcome with credible evidence to the contrary. Individuals possessing or knowing of such evidence should submit the information in writing to the Associate Administrator for Business Development (AA/BD) for consideration.


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Your comments were deleted because they are inconsistent with this forum.  However, I didn't feel they required your immediate banishment.  Leave it at that. 

If the 8(a) program is race-based, try it in court.  If you are correct, you can make it temporary and then end it.  Don't just whine about it. 

Vern was correct in his appraisal of your knowledge of this issue.


Oh, well. It's a private forum. 

This is not a private forum.  It is private property but it is open to all who have contracting experience and who abide by its rules.

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