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Fee on Negotiated Changes


Zag2009

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22 minutes ago, Matthew Fleharty said:

Emphasis added - that's an assumption, not a fact of the OP's scenario.

Fair point. But a contractor has no incentive to delay receiving  revenue, whereas the Government does have an incentive to delay expending revenue. Plus, this is the Government we're talking about here...😀

In all honesty, when I used to do this stuff for the Navy, there was oftentimes a little devil sitting on my shoulder, whispering in my ear that if I just dragged my feet for a month or two, the negotiation would be much easier because it would simply be  a matter of reviewing actuals at that point.

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On 4/20/2018 at 2:45 PM, Vern Edwards said:

Hypothetical:

You're in a firm-fixed-price contract negotiation. You've been going back and forth with the other side: offer-counteroffer. Then the other side submits a counteroffer that you believe to be based on a false assumption that works in your favor. They don't say that they made the assumption, and they don't ask you a single question about the matter, but you can tell based on the content of the counteroffer.

Do you tell them that you think they made a false assumption?

Yes. Not only is it the right thing to do, I have seen where it fostered trust in me by a contractor. Negotiations of subsequent modifications were easier and day to day relations improved. 

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Guest PepeTheFrog

Negotiation does not involve any deception is on par with diversity is our greatest strength.

Some of you sound like church ladies and it makes PepeTheFrog yawn. 

Look, PepeTheFrog does not want to deny you the opportunity to feel warm and fuzzy inside and get a hit of dopamine. Nor does PepeTheFrog want to deny you the opportunity to signal to Internet forum peers that you're morally virtuous and display none of the defects of human nature. 

But when you're being honest with yourselves and not trying to preen or spin into a moral fervor...

...maybe after you've had a stiff drink...

...you'll admit...

Deception is a fundamental part of negotiation. You can judge a society, economy, legal system, culture, civilization, etc. by how much deception is legal or socially acceptable in negotiation. PepeTheFrog agrees it must be kept to the bare minimum.

But seriously, frogs. Name the society, economy, legal system, culture, civilization, etc. that has zero deception in negotiation. Do it without bringing up how you're an angel and never deceived anyone nor would deceive anyone, ever, in any situation. 

 

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4 hours ago, PepeTheFrog said:

Deception is a fundamental part of negotiation.

de·cep·tion
dəˈsepSH(ə)n/
noun
 
synonyms: deceit, deceitfulness, duplicity, double-dealing, fraud, cheating, trickery, chicanery, deviousness, slyness, wiliness, guile, bluff, lying, pretense, treachery

 

The downside of course being that  you only get to employ that tactic once, because your credibility and integrity is totally shot thereafter.

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29 minutes ago, REA'n Maker said:

The downside of course being that  you only get to employ that tactic once, because your credibility and integrity is totally shot thereafter.

You can employ deception more than once. Your credibility and integrity is harmed only if (a) you get caught and (b) it's a form or instance of deception that, for whatever reason, is "bad" enough to destroy your credibility and integrity. Nobody cares if you're caught with an inflated "bottom line" in many types of negotiation. "OK, fine, you're really killing me, but I'll do $12,500 instead of my limit, which was $13,000...but only because I really like you!"

You're implying that all tactics that involve deception will destroy your credibility and integrity (and that you will get caught every time). Putting aside getting caught, not all forms of deception rise to the level of the synonyms you listed like fraud or treachery. Fraud or treachery will likely destroy your credibility and integrity. Successful bluffing will not have any effect. Unsuccessful bluffing might reduce it. Guile will not likely destroy it; your opponent might respect you more for it. Lying may or may not reduce or destroy it. It depends on the lie and whether you get caught. 

PepeTheFrog thinks many of you have an emotional reaction to the word and concept of deception. Deal with it. Face reality. 

PepeTheFrog would say that some of you are living in a world that doesn't exist, or that you are playing by rules that nobody else follows. But PepeTheFrog doesn't believe some of you are being honest and fully transparent....instead, you're being deceptive about your potential for and comfort in using deception. Or maybe you're just deceiving yourself. 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Matthew Fleharty said:

I don't recall anyone here saying that deception doesn't happen, but there are plenty saying it shouldn't

That's like saying competition and violence shouldn't happen. Or that hierarchy should be abolished. 

Good luck! You might say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one...

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The reality is that a frog has to practice deception and guile to avoid being eaten by predators, such as the 14 foot alligator in my back yard lagoon. Unfortunately, she believes that it is also necessary at her work. 

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43 minutes ago, PepeTheFrog said:

That's like saying competition and violence shouldn't happen. Or that hierarchy should be abolished. 

No it’s literally not - stop drawing false equivalences, it’s bad form.

47 minutes ago, PepeTheFrog said:

You're implying that all tactics that involve deception will destroy your credibility and integrity (and that you will get caught every time). Putting aside getting caught, not all forms of deception rise to the level of the synonyms you listed like fraud or treachery. Fraud or treachery will likely destroy your credibility and integrity. Successful bluffing will not have any effect. Unsuccessful bluffing might reduce it. Guile will not likely destroy it; your opponent might respect you more for it. Lying may or may not reduce or destroy it. It depends on the lie and whether you get caught. 

PepeTheFrog thinks many of you have an emotional reaction to the word and concept of deception. Deal with it. Face reality. 

PepeTheFrog would say that some of you are living in a world that doesn't exist, or that you are playing by rules that nobody else follows. But PepeTheFrog doesn't believe some of you are being honest and fully transparent....instead, you're being deceptive about your potential for and comfort in using deception. Or maybe you're just deceiving yourself. 

“Putting aside getting caught...”?!?!?! Who is living in their own world now Pepe?! You cannot just wish away a strong argument against your position because it’s convenient for your point. You’ve ignored the fact that (a) inevitably deceptive practices will be caught if repeated over time and, further (b) trained and prepared negotators know how to identify deception.

There are other, effective ways to negotiate beyond relying on or using deception - period.

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17 hours ago, PepeTheFrog said:

PepeTheFrog thinks many of you have an emotional reaction to the word and concept of deception.

My response is devoid of any emotional or moral precepts.  It's simply a fact that deception is not a sound business strategy.  There is no recovery after  your deception is exposed.  Your effectiveness as a negotiator after that point is zero.  Simple as that.

 

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7 minutes ago, REA'n Maker said:

It's simply a fact that deception is not a sound business strategy.

Deception is a fundamental part of negotiation. 

You switched to business strategy, which opens to the door to even more deception.

What is marketing? Is there any deception in marketing? Marketing is a fundamental business strategy (or tactic, or practice). 

What is advertising? Is there any deception in advertising? Advertising is a fundamental business strategy (or tactic, or practice).

10 minutes ago, REA'n Maker said:

There is no recovery after  your deception is exposed.  Your effectiveness as a negotiator after that point is zero.

You overstate the cost of being caught for deception by assuming the absolutely worst form of deception. Fraud might reduce you to zero, sure. Concealing critical facts or information about your strategic position so that the other side has a mistaken (incorrect, inaccurate, untrue) belief about your position will not reduce you to zero. It's expected because deception is a fundamental part of negotiation.

17 hours ago, Matthew Fleharty said:

You’ve ignored the fact that (a) inevitably deceptive practices will be caught if repeated over time and, further (b) trained and prepared negotators know how to identify deception.

Some deceptive practices will not be caught and can be repeated over time.

There is some deception that negotiators cannot or will not identify, no matter their level of training or preparation. You overstate the ability of trained and prepared negotiators. How can a negotiator know what they don't know? CIA and DOD research into remote viewing and psychic phenomena has not progressed as far as you might think and those that demonstrate abilities are not widely available as negotiators. They're usually used for other projects. 

17 hours ago, Matthew Fleharty said:

There are other, effective ways to negotiate beyond relying on or using deception - period.

True, but that doesn't falsify that deception is a fundamental part of negotiation.

 

When you negotiate, the other side sees your position as an iceberg above the water. The other side only sees what you present about yourself, or what the other side can find out about you.

The iceberg below the water is what the other side doesn't know, which is the totality of your incentives, finances, strategy, timelines, etc. Part of your job as a negotiator is to conceal a certain amount of the iceberg below the water so that you can maintain a stronger negotiation position and get a better deal. If the other side knew everything about the iceberg below the water, your position would be weaker. As a negotiator, you lead the other side to believe that your negotiation position is stronger than it is in reality by keeping certain facts or information to yourself. You lead the other side to believe something that is not true (deception).

Deceive: cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage

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18 hours ago, joel hoffman said:

The reality is that a frog has to practice deception and guile to avoid being eaten by predators, such as the 14 foot alligator in my back yard lagoon. Unfortunately, she believes that it is also necessary at her work. 

"Tho' Nature, red in tooth and claw"

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2 hours ago, PepeTheFrog said:

True, but that doesn't falsify that deception is a fundamental part of negotiation.

Yes it does.  See definition of "fundamental"

Quote

forming or serving as an essential component of a system or structure; central

If one does not need to use or rely on deception to be an effective negotiator (which you just agreed was "true"), it follows that deception is not essential and therefore, not a "fundamental part of negotiation."

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Guest PepeTheFrog

Somebody call Professors Dunning and Kruger.

1 hour ago, Matthew Fleharty said:

If one does not need to use or rely on deception to be an effective negotiator (which you just agreed was "true"), it follows that deception is not essential and therefore, not a "fundamental part of negotiation."

Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy. Or maybe it's deceptive?

PepeTheFrog said that it is true that... 

21 hours ago, Matthew Fleharty said:

There are other, effective ways to negotiate beyond relying on or using deception

 

 

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