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College Degree?


Vern Edwards

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Headline in the Nov 28 edition of The Wall Street Journal, page A3:

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Employers Rethink Need for a Degree

Excerpt:

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Companies such as Alphabet Inc.’s Google, Delta Air Lines Inc. and International Business Machines Corp. have reduced educational requirements for certain positions and shifted hiring to focus more on skills and experience. Maryland this year cut college-degree requirements for many state jobs—leading to a surge in hiring—and incoming Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro campaigned on a similar initiative.

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Some occupations have universal degree requirements, such as doctors and engineers, while others typically have no higher education requirements, such as retail workers. There is a middle ground, such as tech positions, that have varying degree requirements depending on the industry, company and strength of the labor market and economy.

Longer version available online.

Does all 1102 work require a degree? Which ones do and which ones don't?

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I apologize if this post is not responsive to Vern's question. I don't work in the government, only ever the private sector (contractors).

 

It used to be the case that a degree inferred some ability to write and to critically think and to perform analysis. Not so much any more. Are those skills important for an 1102 position? Not for me to say.

I will say that my first "real" job after completing college with a B.A. -- a liberal arts degree -- was at a large defense contractor. I was immediately interested in the subject of government contracting, and took classes at night in UCLA's Government Contracts Certificate program. One of my first classes was Cost/Price Analysis -- thought to be the hardest class in the series but I didn't know that when I enrolled. My point is: it wasn't hard. Not at all. It was just algebra and analysis. After my college coursework (again: liberal arts) I found the work easy and skated through the class; I didn't understand why my classmates struggled so. Then I found out that several didn't have college degrees and were trying to apply the high school algebra they'd learned years before and had mostly forgotten.

Of course, this was decades ago and things have changed since then. I don't think I have any liberal arts folks on my staff; they are almost all Finance/Accounting types. They can run rings around me on a spreadsheet. But critical thinking and analysis? Missing in action.

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42 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:

Do you think a degree would enhance the image of a CO working with scientists, engineers, physicians, lawyers, et cetera?

I don’t necessarily.  What those individuals seek from COs is professional services that directly addresses their needs.  How to deliver those services be learned many ways of which college is just one.  I don’t think people know or care if a CO has a degree or not, especially if they are happy in the work relationship. 

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21 hours ago, Vern Edwards said:

Do you think a degree would enhance the image of a CO working with scientists, engineers, physicians, lawyers, et cetera?

Depends on the situation. If a CO is working with an engineer on an electrical project and has an electrical engineering degree, then yes. The answer 98% of the time would be no. Having a "degree" these days means nothing to our and many other fields. 

21 hours ago, formerfed said:

I don’t think people know or care if a CO has a degree or not, especially if they are happy in the work relationship.

I have never been asked by a client if I have a degree. Nor do I force such information on them, via my email signature block, as so many do. If I never see another GS-9 accounting tech with B.S. behind their name, it'll be too soon. 

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On 11/28/2022 at 5:19 AM, Vern Edwards said:

Does all 1102 work require a degree?

No.  It may be an indicator of knowledge, skills and abilities but what then?  Legislation that removed the 24 business hour credit requirement is a noted move away from degree requirements for much of the workforce (Section 861(b) of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for FY 2020 (Pub. L. 116-92) amended Section 1724 of Title 10, United States Code) and the further step would be making a degree a "should" or even a "may" requirement based on specifics rather than a "shall".  Achievement of a certification ( I let others argue which one) might be a replacement but hopefully on a "may" basis as well.

The person will dictate their personal success not the degree they may or may not hold in the field of contracting (1102).

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45 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:

Should we return to a civil service type exam when hiring? A reading test and a writing test? A reasoning test?

You bet.  If there still the intent to operate like the commercial sector why not use one their certification/tests rather than create more bureaucracy?  I think PACE is gone, I honestly have not kept up?  NCMA certifications, before snickering consider that if the acknowledge standard then maybe NCMA certifications could be rise to the ocassion and better fit the needed mold.  Others????   However not necessarily for the entry hire into the series (should, may) but darn sure for continuation in the career field.   And an absolute that no agency could replace the whatever with their own certification, warranting board etc.    The latter perpetuate, in my view, biased decisions for positions rather than basis straight on talent. 

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1 hour ago, Vern Edwards said:

Should we return to a civil service type exam when hiring? A reading test and a writing test? A reasoning test?

Tests like that can’t be developed that are acceptable to everyone today.

What worked best for me in making hiring decisions is interviews combined with detailed reference checks.  Detailed questions to gauge personal accomplishments, interests, career goals, experiences, challenges, etc., combined with candid reference verifications worked.  I got a pretty good sense of each applicants potential to be successful, at least in the job we had in mind.

 

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As for testing, according to OPM https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/hiring-information/competitive-hiring/

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The Federal Government consists of three types of services, the Competitive Service, the Excepted Service, and the Senior Executive Service. The competitive service consists of all civil service positions in the executive branch of the Federal Government with some exceptions. The exceptions are defined in section 2102 of title 5, United States Code (5 U.S.C. 2102)

In the competitive service, individual must go through a competitive process (i.e. competitive examining) which is open to all applicants. This process may consist of a written test, an evaluation of the individual's education and experience, and/or an evaluation of other attributes necessary for successful performance in the position to be filled.

Emphasis added. I see nothing about what kind of test.

See 5 CFR Part 337.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Not sure we have a better screening method for talent (logic, reading, writing) than a college degree, at least one we agree on.  Tyler Cowen released a podcast on the topic of college degrees and the labor market a few months ago, "Conversations with Tyler: Byron Auguste on Rewiring the U.S. Labor Market."  Interesting convo...go to min 7:55 if you want the bottom line.

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  • 1 month later...

I have obtained an MBA as well as a fancy Master in Military Arts and Science from Air Command and Staff College that probably isn't worth the ink on the diploma.

I can't say I've utilized either. (I am still dismayed that PME is forced on civilians. Emphasis on business application, seminars on 1102 topics would go miles beyond glad-handing and pseudo-leadership exercises. If I'm ever in charge of the order of battle something has gone horribly, terribly wrong -- and I apologize in advance.)

I do think a college degree is useful in that there are many individuals who can't competently complete tasks on time. A generalist degree helps build strength with tools like Powerpoint (And I'm sure in the future there will be MSTeams classes, et al.) These are important working-level and collaborative tools that a writing test will not identify. We can all pretend we will train employees to utilize the various software that are not only helpful but necessary to excel (see what I did there?) in the field, but oft that's left up to the individual to self-teach. A degree (bus. courses et al,) helps ensure there is a minimum benchmark that helps mitigate that training responsibility.

A written test might prove you can write -- but can you do it consistently over a period of time? While balancing competing objectives? Courting Susie, skipping Philosophy to study for the Biochem exam were not so different from charming the program office, skipping out on a weekly division all-call to prepare UCA charts.

This is an internet forum, so it's possible by merely writing here we may have a bias towards the written word than what may be necessary.

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  • 2 months later...

Apologies, new to the forums, long time lurker (2009) and just registered last Friday after reading https://www.wifcon.com/discussion/index.php?/blogs/entry/5340-when-the-last-dinosaur-turns-out-the-lights/ from Bob7947. In general I keep to myself and read other's posts. Long time admirer of Wifcon and recognize many responders here. I did a large agency email and sent the link to Bob's blog for ideally more people to register and post. That said...

I have mixed feelings on the degree requirements for 1102's. Similar to 'Self-Employed' (quoted), I went through a MA program in Management and Leadership vs. MBA, and also have an ACSC paper that I think I have filed somewhere. Which is funny because I remember thinking the same thing when I finished (If I were ever in charge of combat movements...something very wrong has happened). I do use my MA often surprisingly because it focused on change management and dealing with competing personalities, etc. - Though to criticize, in my program I was in class with people that still couldn't form a coherent thought on paper, lacked any grammatical skill (few vs. less, then-than, there-their-they're).

I was a lead trainer for a couple years with the AF for a systems area (aircraft and ICBM stuff), left AF in 2017 for a DOI sub-agency (prefer not to say) and train teams on multiple areas, but generally now specialize in construction. In another post, Vern had stated expanding 1106's responsibilities, again, apologize for the mashup of posts; but I think it is pertinent to this post as well. In our agency we have 1106's (PT's)  most of which were recruited as student interns from out of high-school or job fairs.  The applicability of that post to this one is many of the 1106's do not have a 4 year degree and have no desire to obtain one. If they want to get above a GS-7 in this agency they generally need to become a grants specialist vs. a contract specialist. We do use the PT positions as stepping stones many time, or to separate the wheat from the chaff so to say. We do let some PT's that don't fit go, and there aren't very many people content with staying a PT anymore.

To me this is a shame as some of the PT's I trained that I would have liked to see move into an 1102 position had no degree and no desire to pursue one. Leadership is a bit dated as well as our HR department and the organization is run by essentially engineers. Anyway, to the point, I don't always see a net gain on a college degree for all personnel. Currently I cannot find many people in the organization that can think or problem-solve, thoughtfully utilize a 'template' and revise it accordingly (meaning apply thought to each section and write original content), or take on more complex workload. The college degree doesn't seem to help with that aspect. After years of training, at least I hope, you can start to tell (generally) which people could flourish and which would not. 

The problem I have run into, especially as of late and higher during 2020 start of COVID, is abysmal retention rates. As I train the 'keepers' they leave for quicker promotions and more TW/remote opportunities. I've been at training long enough that I'm happy when the good ones get promotions and move on, and ready to start over again to hopefully train some of the upcoming generation in the hopes they pass it on as well. Though, lately I have seen a vast overturn and many seasoned people leave. I still stay in touch with my AF network and they are having many of the same issues in hiring and retention. I think removal of the college degree, if implemented correctly, may be the right move. Especially since many universities have no-fail policies and push people through like public schools do (factual? not sure, seemed like it in my experience - team assignments, couldn't read many team member's sections or understand what they were trying to get at). 

Though, I'm not sure how to implement that, I saw the thought of a test thrown around. When I joined I had to take a test but I was active duty and cross-trained into contracting. To join I had to interview with a superintendent that asked me generalized questions that really was looking to see if I had any problem-solving skills and could speak coherently. But, I do see the concern with a test being deemed 'appropriate' for all people with the cancel culture and fear of upsetting personnel, or having to notify they did not measure up. Long-winded response to say, I personally think, and in my experience believe waiving the requirement may be best started on a case-by-case basis. However, the question is soon becoming who would determine which person is fit? Many supervisors I see and have worked for know very little about contracting. They promoted very quickly and went into management, some without any real experience because they had a degree. I think caution whatever the route should be applied. Though, again, I personally am seeing a very large skill gap currently and it is getting worse. 

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  • 2 months later...

I don't think a degree is very useful.  It seems that degrees are much easier to obtain today and probably take less effort and aptitude depending on the school.  I’d rather see some sort of written and oral assessments that help determine the knowledge and experience a person has, as well as their accomplishments.  I think these are better determinants of a person’s value to an organization.

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Seems like the wish for competency testing has been granted with the new DAU curriculum overhaul.  IRS has been using testing for quite some time and it seems to be successful*.

 

 

(*I say this because it weeded out an incompetent GS14 from our agency who accepted an IRS job contingent on passing the exam - he didn't, and is now back at my agency. As a COR. 😭)

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