Looking for Thoughts

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 8:36 AM, Looking for Thoughts said:

So what do you all think?  Just get a cert that says "none provided" in the proposal identification line?  There will be no proposal from them.  

So, I will leave this with one last question.  If the subcontractor will NOT be providing a proposal how does one comply with 52.215-12.  Just a cert per the bolded above? 

Vern-

Sure is otherwise this would not be any concern.

Looking

6 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:

No. It does not help explain.

What does "parcels out" mean? What's a "teammate"? 

What kind of legal relationship exists or is created between the prime and the firm you call a "teammate"? If by "parcels out" you mean awarding a subcontract or issuing an order to the teammate, then parceling out creates a contractual relationship and the prime has to get cost or pricing data from the "teammate" if FAR 52.215-12 is in the prime contract.

These kinds of questions must be answered through formal definition and legal analysis. If you think in terms like "parcels out" and "teammates," you can't get to an answer until your translate them into professional/regulatory language.

Looking for Thoughts, are you new to government contracting?

Vern-  No, not at all new to this.  Sorry for use of colloquial terms.  In this case "parceling out" means awarding work under the prime award  to the various companies with whom the Prime has BOA's (without guaranteed min or max).  Teammates are those subs who have BOA's with labor rates identified.  Again, I don't see any exception for CCPD but was hoping someone had run into this type of scenario.  Best Regards-

So what do you all think?  Just get a cert that says "none provided" in the proposal identification line?  There will be no proposal from them.  

1 hour ago, Vern Edwards said:

What I think is happening with the OP is that the prime is negotiating a task order with the government, has already negotiated an agreement on hourly T&M labor rates with a "subcontractor," and used those rates in combination with its own estimate of the number of hours the sub would need to complete its work under the task order when submitting a price to the government.

The question is: under that circumstance, does the prime have to get certified cost or pricing data from the "subcontractor."

The answer turns on whether the prime actually has a subcontract with the "subcontractor" for performance of the work under the task order or just an agreement on rates. If the prime has only an agreement on hourly labor rates and must enter into a contract with the subcontractor, or issue an order, for performance, then the answer is yes, the prime must get certified cost or pricing data.

An agreement on hourly T&M labor rates might not, in fact, be a subcontract. Is the subcontractor legally bound to perform? If not, and if a subcontract must be formed in order to bind the sub, then the requirement for certified cost or pricing data applies. Moreover, an agreement on T&M rates does not constitute a price for the subcontract work without an agreement on the number of hours the sub will need to complete its part of the job. That's because, as described in the FAR, a T&M contract is not complete until the parties have established a ceiling price for the work to be done, i.e., rates X hours. Thus, the CO must require the prime to require the sub to submit certified cost or pricing data in connection with the negotiation of a ceiling price for the subcontract awarded or order issued to the sub. See FAR 16.505(b)(3).

One might argue that a subcontract, being a private agreement, need not have a ceiling price, and thus the prime and its sub need not negotiate an agreement on a ceiling price in order to complete their subcontract. I think that's a good argument if you can get the CO to buy it. 

The award to the sub would be FFP, not T&M.   The plot sickens....

Nope- Just BOA's with the rates...

Hi All- thanks for the great convo-

This is all "hypothetical" at this point.  The Prime IDIQ contract from the Gov't contains teammates rates.  When RFP's for DO's go out they are often very quick turn around so suppose the prime uses the contract rates and estimates hours and plugs in profit for various tasks.  When the DO is awarded the prime then parcels out work to various teammates. The ones that go over the CCPD threshold are problematical as no proposal was requested or received but I have found no exception for CCPD and was curious because in reality there was no proposal to certify to.  Does this help explain the scenario?

But there would be none provided.  They would still execute a cert?

Thanks Vern.  What would they certify to?

It does.   The Prime will be required to certify.

thanks Patrick.. I meant to title the post Award without a Proposal..oh well

Hi-

If a prime submits a Task Order proposal (CPFF) without getting a subcontractors proposal (using the Subs contractual rates set out in the IDQ) and estimating the hours themselves as well as the profit and then makes an award to the sub over 750k would the sub be obliged to provide Certified COPD?  I can't see how unless the sub went back and forth with the prime on the pricing. Looking at FAR 15.404 it addresses the requirement for CCOPD before an award over 750k, not a proposal.  Thoughts?