Jump to content
The Wifcon Forums and Blogs

Patrick Mathern

  • Content Count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Community Reputation

0 Neutral

About Patrick Mathern

  • Rank

Profile Information

  • Gender
  • Location
    Santa Barbara, CA
  • Interests
    Cost analysis, supplier rate and factor audits, business system reviews, training, consulting, exchanging ideas, networking

Recent Profile Visitors

4,505 profile views
  1. The only reason I can surmise that the COO would want to talk Contribution Margin is that you're currently heavy on indirect (fixed) costs. If you have had a sudden downturn in business or if you missed winning a large contract that was already figured into annual revenue, then the COO is going to be very concerned with covering that shortfall. H2H is correct in the defective pricing comment, but based on what you're saying, I'd guess (and yes, it's a complete guess) that your COO is covering shortfall rather than building a windfall. As for the difference in Gross versus Contribution, this site does a good job of explaining it: https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/122314/what-difference-between-gross-margin-and-contribution-margin.asp An excerpt: "In comparison with gross profit margin, [contribution margin] is a per-item profit metric, as opposed to the total profit metric given by gross margin."
  2. I believe the point that Retread's making here (and in which I'm also interested) is as follows: Assume the Prime is exempt from submitting certified cost or pricing data due to competition at the Prime Contract level. Now assume that the Prime has a subcontract on this same prime contract that exceeds the TCOPD threshold and is not subject to FAR exemptions. What will the CPSR team expect to see if they pull this file down the line? A cost analysis and cost or pricing data cert from the sub?
  3. Just took a look at ERI Salary Assessor - it doesn't appear to me that it has any insight into markup. This appears to just be salary...please correct me if I'm misreading this, general_correspondence. SpendLogic is (still) the only tool I know of that provides automated bottoms-up analysis of rates including markup (indirects and profit). Also, I disagree with this comment regarding using GSA. The problem with GSA is that it DOESN'T show what GSA pays...
  4. I've seen the DCMA reject the use of GSA in a CPSR and issue findings. Most large companies know this and have notes in their procedures that GSA data cannot be used as a basis for price analysis. CALC is a great tool when used in conjunction with other methods, but relying on it or basing a price analysis on the data is inadvisable from an audit perspective. I probably don't have to say this, and I don't believe general_correspondence mean it to be used as such, but applying a random multiplier is also something that will get you dinged by the DCMA and DCAA. General_Correspondence: What is ERS? Can you provide a link?
  5. Hi Realquiet - We've developed a labor rate analysis tool that relies on government data (BLS, Census, and IRS) and does just what you're asking, plus writes the price analysis document. Email me (patrick@spendlogic.com) and I can show you and example and get you set up with a free trial. Patrick
  6. Posting back and forth always loses something in translation, so thanks for being patient. I'm still missing something here. How was your client "approved" to do the work? Do they have written documentation from someone at the Prime that carries contractual authority? If so, and if they worked for 90 days based on that approval, then there doesn't appear to be an issue with getting paid for it. Or does the "authorization" refer to the Gov authorizing the Prime?
  7. Based on the above quotations, I don't understand your final point of "not signing and [then] not getting paid." It appears that they already have a contract with the Prime. Since it's LOE, there's no deliverable required other than their effort toward a specified objective. I'd recommend getting solid on their existing contract and then going from there. If they don't have a contract with the Prime, what was the "approval" they were working under?
  8. H2H is correct. To figure this out for your company, you first need to know how the rate was originally calculated. You must then apply that rate the exact same way. If that satisfies your question, stop reading here. If you want to see this concept in action, here you go... Imagine a company with annual labor costs of $500K (we will use this as a base for overheads in this example). They have fringe of $150K, overhead cost of $50K and G&A of $25K. In a perfect world, they will have forecast revenues such that they recoup exactly $725K at the end of the year (this is the sum total of all their cost, but excludes profit for this example). Fringe = $150/$500 = 30% Overhead = $50/($150 + $500) = 7.69% G&A = $25/($50 + $150 + $500) = 3.57% Assume they nail their forecast labor cost of $500K. Wrap Option 1 (1+Fringe Rate + OH Rate) * (1+G&A Rate) = 500 *(1+0.3 + .0769) * (1+.0357)= 713 Since it’s not equal to $725, we know this is wrong. Adding fringe and overhead rates in this way suggests the rates are both only applied to direct cost. OH should be applied to direct plus fringe. Wrap Option 2 1 + Fringe Rate + OH Rate + G&A Rate 500*(1 + 0.3 + .0769 + .0357)=706 Wrong again. This implies all rates are applied only against direct. Again a violation of how they were calculated. Wrap Option 3 (1+ Fringe Rate)*(1+ OH Rate)*(1+G&A Rate) = 500*(1+ 0.3)*(1+ .0769)*(1+.0357) =725 Fringe is applied against direct. OH against fringe plus direct. G&A against fringe plus direct plus OH. This is how they were calculated to create the rate, so this is correct. Now for the kicker... Let’s re-calculate our rates using a different method. Same cost assumptions. We will change the Overhead rate in alignment with Wrap Option 1: Fringe = $150/$500 = 30% Overhead = $50/$500 = 10% G&A = $25/($50 + $150 + $500) = 3.57% Now we re-apply using the new rates.... Wrap Option 1 (1+Fringe Rate + OH Rate) * (1+G&A Rate) = 500 *(1+0.3 + .1) * (1+.0357)= 725 We could do the same thing for Wrap Option 2. This is why H2H says that you need to understand how the rate is calculated in order to determine the “right” way to do it. HAVING SAID THAT...Wrap Option 3 is most common because of a concept that says indirect costs should be tied to the direct costs which they’re related to. But that’s a whole other post...
  9. Obligation? No, but be prepared for the consequences if you decide not to play ball (i.e. contentious negotiations, difficulty in other contracting issues, etc.) If you have a definitized agreement (Purchase Order most likely) that is a contractual commitment including price, it appears that perhaps your Prime is a bit upside-down. You have no obligation...unless you want to help your Prime out of a tough spot. On the other hand, consider that this request happens prior to PO placement. All of a sudden this becomes an opportunity to weigh in on a process that is too-often a one-sided conversation. Think of it this way: your Prime has determined that you are NOT commercial and that price reasonableness cannot be determined without Other Than Certified Cost or Pricing Data. Yuck! Show them why you're commercial and give them several market comparables with rationale for any adjustments, to explain why your price is reasonable. All of a sudden, you've made their lives easier, which means you've made life easier for yourselves. They still have an obligation to write their price analysis, but you've now framed the conversation with objective facts.
  10. I think I'm suffering from the same lack of information that Vern is, Corduroy...maybe you can shine just a little more light on the situation. Which of these applies in your case (in line with Joel's comment above): If the Government is saying that they expect 1,920 hours of work, then your client will need to show 1,920 hours...not 1,860 hours plus 60 hours of vacation. Reducing the rate to $48.44 seems like it will cause a hit to their profit. If the Government is saying that they expect one devoted head and they're willing to pay their salary for a year, then your $93K argument seems to hold.
  11. Interesting point Vern. Help me understand - for that to matter in the calculations, wouldn't the RFX have requested total annual cost rather than an hourly rate? What am I missing here?
  12. Hey there Corduroy, From the contractor's perspective, think of it this way: if you had an FPLOE task that was estimated at 1,920 hours (assume that's accurate) and you responded with a rate and estimate of 1,860 hours, explaining that vacations and sick leave were the reason that 1,860 was appropriate is not sufficient. You still have 1,920 hours of work to complete. Based on this explanation, the government would always adjust upward. However, if your proposal stated that due to the skill mix and your unique approach, you believe you could save 140 hours, then you may have success in reducing the estimated hours. My thinking on why the government makes sense of this is that in an FPLOE, what really matters from a competition standpoint is the bill rate. The government's independent estimate has determined that 1,920 hours will be required based on the work and skill levels required. Multiplying these hours times each bid rate results in their budget estimate. In their opinion, this is the only way to fairly evaluate potential bidders. As for billings, I'm not following what you're saying. Your proposed bill rate will be the rate at which are paid, not the (rate * 1920/12) result. I don't understand the overbilling comment. The adjustment made by the government is just for comparison purposes. It does not change what you'll be paid.
  13. Hi Brian - I can give you my experience in helping primes work with subs. If you're an agency CO, then someone else may be able to provide better information. Document, document, document. 1. Consult your company's policies and procedures. What I have below will still ding you in a CPSR if it's not aligned with your company's P&P's. 2. Make sure your commercial item determination and non-competitive source justifications are ROCK SOLID. At $850K, this is going to set off alarm bells. 3. Assuming you have a solid CID, look again at price analysis. Although this was last purchased in the 90's, are there current versions of the item to which price could be compared? 4. If the answer to 2 is no, proceed from your current position by communicating your findings with the supplier. Show them what you came up with and ask them what you're missing. It's up to them to support the price they're offering. You'll have the most success with this approach if you come to the table with objective, verifiable, fact-based data such as... Rates: Use salary.com or calc.gsa.gov and add a % for overheads and profit Hours: Get expert opinions that break tasks down to the lowest level possible. Use engineers if possible, but regardless of whose opinion it is, provide support for WHY those hours were determined reasonable. You want to give them something to argue against. As they provide additional facts, your price should come up. 5. If you get to the point where you have no other choice but to place the contract and cannot determine the price reasonable, then you need to document your efforts. Include a very thorough negotiation memorandum that clearly shows the effort you put into getting a reasonable price from the supplier. If you're a Prime with a certified procurement system, audit teams are going to scrutinize this package closely, so make sure your documentation is top-notch.
  14. Could you clarify a bit? What is the real issue here? At first glance, I don't understand why "having an FFP contract" and "large ODC expense" necessarily have impact on one another. Are you saying the large ODC expense was in support of the FFP and you have other Cost Reimbursable contracts this will affect?
  15. I agree with Joel - in certain circumstances this makes sense. Specifically, when the contract includes a direct requirement, then these can be direct charges (think FFP follow-on contracts, for example). See FAR 31.205-18(a) and CAS 9904.402-61(c) for more info. However, your post (and response) actually deal with the purchasing function, not proposal prep. In that case, as Neil notes, you REALLY have to understand the supplier's accounting practices. If they are organized such that purchasing is a direct charge function, there's nothing wrong with that if it's done properly. If they have a Disclosure Statement, start there. If not, run an audit program focused on allocability. I know that at least one of the top 5 defense contractors is organized this way. In general, this isn't an "unallowable" method of collecting and charging for Purchasing labor.
  • Create New...