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C Culham
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Posts posted by C Culham
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@Vern Edwards I can answer but I won't as it is my belief you have now taken the thread beyond intent of Beginners.
As to count of references I am sorry you were offended. As I said "no biggy".
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24 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:
Carl said it's not time spent working,
I did say this. To clarify "effort" could mean more than time such as materials, equipment
24 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:because work cannot be defined.
But I did not say this. My post may have implied it but my use of "work defined" was to set the parameters of why a level of effort type contract (per the FAR) is needed. My apology for the confusion.
33 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:And are T&M and L-H contracts level of effort contracts?
Yes in a general view they are as they require level of effort. But doesn't every contract? It would seem the difference between any contract is with regard to how the cost or pricing of the the effort will be paid to the contractor.
58 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:The phrase "level of effort" appears 21 times in FAR.
No biggy but I got 34 results back in my search.
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Nope. Example - Work can not be clearly defined. There is agreed to sideboards by the parties on the effort with it acknowledged that the effort will accomplish the intended result. Contract is for 6 months yet the effort needed to accomplish the result in the stated 6 months is only 3 months because folks won't be "working" on weekends, holidays, inclement weather, fire prevention levels, birthdays, fish runs, etc. etc.
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The amount of effort expressed in a contract to be utilized by a contractor to accomplish the contract. Effort level can be stated in minutes, hours, days, weeks, months or maybe even years.
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2 hours ago, Vern Edwards said:
Question: Does that kind of contract action make sense?
I am thinking really hard to provide a reasoned response. I do need clarity. Looking at comments in the thread already is the "contract" a BPA or a IDIQ? By my read it is the former based on this line in the protest - "challenging the award of two Blanket Purchase Agreements (BPAs)".
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2 hours ago, Deathdealer said:
On a labor hours contract, a nearly identical service is offered (palm reading for example). We have ongoing weekly services that we are allowed to charge one rate for (ex $30/hr) & then we have random pop up events that the contract says we can charge $50/hr.
At times the agency will ask us to flex a daily palm readers time (work less hours during the week) to cover a pop up event and only allow us to charge the daily $30/hr rate although the event type is one the contract states we can charge $50/hr for the pop up event.
I always assume what is in the contract is what we should be able to bill. I have heard the statement "it not only depends on what the contract states but also how it was initially priced." I'm trying to understand this statement and how the initial pricing should be considered vs what the contract language states. I hope this is coherent, if not I am sure I will know soon enough
With the details provided it is my view it is what the contract states as that is the intent of contract isn't it? I could see where the agency could say something in the contract that today we need palm readers to complete what is at hand today and then the next day we believe we have needs for the pop-up to accomplish the need. Contract language would tell me if such requests would be allowed. I will also say that setting up a labor hour contract in such a manner could be contrary to the general view that a labor hour contract does not buy hours it buys services to accomplish something where it is "not possible at the time of placing the contract to estimate accurately the extent or duration of the work or to anticipate costs with any reasonable degree of confidence" (Quote from the FAR regarding application of labor hour contracts).
This reference is dated but it is a good read, it might help you further. The Time-and-Materials Contract: The Time Has Come For A Long, Hard Look Go here https://www.wifcon.com/analysis.htm scroll down to 2004 and find this article, it might help explain how LH is to work but it may not be how the agency thought their contract should work.. While it is about T&M the concepts apply to LH.
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22 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:
Question: Does that kind of contract action make sense?
I wonder what that procurement, including the protest litigation, cost the taxpayers.
Contract? Seems GAO is confused. I thought they reasoned BPA's issued per GSA FSS are not contracts?
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36 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:
The UCF is one of the best things in the FAR. It was in the ASPR and FPR before FAR. It is an excellent way to organize the content of a solicitation and contract.
Agreed. My recollection is that in the move its use was implied to be imperative to provide ease for contractors in viewing solicitations/contracts across all agencies so stuff was essentially in the same place.
39 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:FAR 12.303 prescribes a format to be used "to the maximum extent practicable," but its use is not strictly mandatory, and some agencies now use the UCF to organize commercial item RFPs and contracts.
And the format of FAR 12.303 is built upon (my terminology) in FAR clasue 52.212-4 paragraph (s) Order of Precedence.
42 minutes ago, Vern Edwards said:I recommend use of the UCF for large commercial item RFPs and contracts, because it works. Otherwise, RFPS for commercial items are sometimes badly organized, even chaotic, because contract specialists receive next to no training about organizing and writing RFPs and contracts, and important task.
Even the small ones by my experience attempt UCF but are organized poorly and provide in some cases of conflicts that could not/cannot be solved by a simple application of paragraph (s) of 52.212-4. Consistency is the key and agencies should consider a waiver to paragraph (s) that provides for use of full UCF at the discreation of the CO.
I never understood why FAR 12 departed from UCF for commercial product/item as in my experience there is no real uniform contract format in the commercial market place. I guess I could be wrong but the commercial terms and conditions I have viewed suggest no consistency across the commercial market place.
Overall I have always thought the UCF was good as well but it seems the "to the maximum..." is read as an imperative rather than discreationary.
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1 hour ago, Seeking2Award said:
I thanked you for your time already.
No you did not. I can't find it unless it was in your opening post where you gave a global thank you for anyone willing to offer thoughts. As to the rest of your post, oh well!
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2 hours ago, Vern Edwards said:
Some of you guys said you'd take care of things after I "retired."
Yep, but I guess we do not get a "A" for effort. Your wealth of recall and knowledge is a leg up, yet it is frustrating when, especially when not in the Beginners Forum, references are provided that provide "magic bullet"and if researched the references would lead to the "more to it" and why there is no magic bullet.
I do not know and will not explore but I wonder if the question posed to "AI" would generate an answer the OP would accept a face value without having to do future research?
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27 minutes ago, Seeking2Award said:
FAR 45.301 is irrelevant to my inquiry as is 3.705 (e).
Bluntly. What? You asked for "FAR References" that supported that the concept was ingrained in FAR. It seems your want a magic bullet and you are not goingto get one in my view as it flat out depends in every instant case. The magic of Federal contracting. And I might add that is why in a general statement on my part, depending on case law as noted in the thread I provided earlier, does not get the matter of the concept of consideration.
Have a great day!
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1 hour ago, Seeking2Award said:
Outside of the FAR reference you provided can you point to any other specific places?
How about FAR 45.301 and 3.705(e). I will not go further other than to remind you that you can easily search the FAR these days.
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Chapter 41 of the DCAA Selected Area of Cost Guidebook points to other FAR Part 31 references that one may want to consider. Patrick you may have already accessed the reference but providing the link anyways.
https://www.dcaa.mil/Guidance/Selected-Area-of-Cost-Guidebook/
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Deleted seems the OP has found a way forward.
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1 hour ago, joel hoffman said:
The UCF is suitable for service and supply contracting.
Other than commercial product or service.
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3 hours ago, Seeking2Award said:
I'm in search of documented authority (U.S.C. / FAR etc.) that would support the below statement:
Have read through this thread?
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My read of the regulation suggests a CO may question the representation at anytime so Joel's suggestion to contact the CO might work.
Truly a egregious representation. Maybe the agency OIG? Maybe your congressional representatives?
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I apologize I just saw this. My thought is this...
Leaving the decision to the CO is trouble some. Many COs and the contract writing systems they use have trouble getting the right clause in a contract. Imagine having to review a statue to determine application.
Examples. Does not this wording make SCA applicable - 41 U.S.C. chapter 6702. ". .applies to any contract or bid specification for a contract, whether negotiated or advertised, that..."
Likewise The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, by my recollection (did not research) had a requirement that any project private or public that used its fund must use USA steel.
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9 hours ago, Vern Edwards said:
That is because, in mass, contracting people are not true professionals. The word is thrown around a lot, and people like to be called professionals and treated as such, but very few achieve that level in thought, communication, and action, and management does not insist that they do.
Interesting view when you consider that the DoD OTA guidance states this on page 10. Seems management has not adequately defined the "who" for a successful OTA effort.
""AOs need not be Contracting Officers, unless required by the Component’s appointment process. Each Component is responsible for determining the Defense Acquisition University (DAU) and/or Component provided courses AOs are required to complete. DAU has offerings online as well as virtually led by instructors on OTs for members of the Government team. BEST PRACTICE: As the Standard Form 1402– Certificate of Appointment cites the FAR as the authority for a warrant, it is best practice to either edit this certificate for AO warrants or create a custom letter type document."
I guess by "Component" they mean as defined by 2 CFR 1125.937 and if so think of the confusion! But who knows?
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I believe no one can answer your question without seeing the task order AND the parent contract under which it has been issued. My suggestion is that you get the parent contract read it completely. I suspect doing so will answer your questions.
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Quick read article with link to DoDs OTA Guidance.
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9 hours ago, formerfed said:
That’s overly complicating things. I wouldn’t even bring that issue up in a solicitation. If travel is involved, request estimated travel costs and a brief explanation of the company’s travel policy. Should an offeror propose business class, discuss the subject with them.
Yes!
9 hours ago, formerfed said:But I’m sure just about every company says coach for employees.
I hope no one uses this statement as market research as I would suggest it really depends on the company, and even for a individual company it might depend on the employee and purpose of travel.
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1 hour ago, Retreadfed said:
Carl, what is the relevance of this to travel under a contract for commercial services?
None. Reread it it please. It was a offhand remark to Don's post that Government folks should be allowed to fly business class.
Level of Effort
in For Beginners Only
Posted
That is not the reason. It is because you digressed.
This exemplifies my concern. I brought up the thought of pricing (and cost) by posting a rhetorical thought and was chastised for doing so.
You should and can. Yet do you not have to accept the territory and the even the rules in doing so as frustrating as it may seem to you?
Level of effort is what one or many put into a task to accomplish it. The measures of the effort comes in many forms like time and stuff and each of the forms has a level, dare I say quantity, that contributes to the effort to achieve success.