on Monday, August 14, 2000 - 11:10 am:
First off, a big Thank You! Mr.
Antonio for providing this forum. I still haven't figured out
why the other one is shutting down, but open forums provide a
valuable service. Thanks!
I recently took over the JOC contracting team in our office.
While contracting is not new to me, JOC is. Are there any good
websites for basic guidance/reference information? Any kind of
advice would be greatly appreciated!!!
c mercy on
Monday, August 14, 2000 - 03:35 pm:
THERE IS AT LEAST ONE
PUBLICATION PRODUCED BY THE US ARMY CENTER FOR PUBLIC WORKS
on Wednesday, August 16, 2000 - 08:36 am:
For information about job order
contracts (JOC), do a search at the Defense Acquisition Deskbook,
www.deskbook.osd.mil. You will find a host of information. Also,
call the nearest office of the Corps of Engineers and ask if
they have a handbook. The Corps has the most experience of any
agency with job order contracts. Other DOD agencies have also
published rules and guidance.
For those who don't know -- a job order contract is a task order
contract for construction work. Pricing is based on job units,
e.g., cubic yard of excavation, linear foot of trenching, square
foot of painting, etc., instead of hourly labor rates.
Ramon Jackson on
Wednesday, August 16, 2000 - 11:09 am:
When I was briefly looking for a good reference for this
question I ran across
The Gordian Group, Inc., consultants in the specific area. I
had to chuckle at the "also known as" list at the bottom of the
Now, is the equivalency exact? Very close? Or are these actually
quite varied in the details? It would be useful to know the
variance. For example, can someone experienced in Indefinite
Delivery - Indefinite Quantity contracting shift to JOC
seamlessly, or will there be lots of little "familiarity" traps
where it seems to be the same and isn't. Sounds like a good
project for someone interested in training for cross functional
use of contracting resources. Or maybe such a comparison exists
in one of the agencies.
on Wednesday, August 16, 2000 - 03:04 pm:
Try AFARS 17.90 for JOC
coverage. I'll try to find a source location for the COE's "Job
Order Contracting Guide." Happy Sails!
on Wednesday, August 16, 2000 - 04:40 pm:
Maureen, The Corps of Engineers
offers two JOC training Courses:
Course# 990 "DPW Job Order Contracting, Basic"
11/28/2000 is the next session in Huntsville, Al.
Next session in May 2001.
Course #991 "DPW Job Order Contracting, Advanced"
12/4/2000 is the next session in Huntsville, Al.
You may try contacting the course manager,Joe Pickett, for
information or to inquire about a space. His e-mail address is
He is TDY until next week. If interested, you can e-mail me and
I will give you his phone number.
Happy Sails! Joel
on Wednesday, August 16, 2000 - 10:53 pm:
Well, job order contracts are for construction work. They are a
variation of the fixed-unit-price contract, to which has been
added an order feature. Job order contracts are IDIQ contracts.
Ramon Jackson on
Wednesday, August 16, 2000 - 11:20 pm:
I'm thinking of Maureen's comment "While contracting is not new
to me, JOC is" and thinking the transition to this particular
construction form from a non-construction IDIQ experience could
be eased by a matrix like comparison with a more familiar
knowledge base of IDIQ.
Identification of equivalents and differences would facilitate
interchangability of people. That would seem to be something
organizations needing to maximize people resources might find it
useful to do. If it is 100% equivalent contractually then an
IDIQ experienced candidate can be told they already have the
tools, just learn construction terminology. If 94%, then the 6%
plus terminology is needed. At least the 6% is clearly targeted.
I expect Maureen and others would feel much more confident upon
being given new tasking with such information.
on Thursday, August 17, 2000 - 09:19 am:
Ramon, I don't believe that JOC
is really much different, in principle , from an ID/IQ service
contract, from the contracting perspective.
Yes, construction specific clauses and issues are involved. The
training focuses on how to develop, estimate, negotiate and
document the negotiation of task orders and changes and also
covers routine construction contract administration tasks. Many
base level DPW personnel are not familiar with the FAR
requirements and procedures.
The JOC contract uses a standardized "unit price book", to which
is added a multiplier, established for the base year and each
option year. The unit price book is essentially a huge
estimating manual for 'almost' all types of minor construction
and repairs to real property facilities and installed equipment.
The Contractor maintains a staff, in accordance with its
Main challenges often are:
1. Lack of familiarity with FAR requirements for defining,
estimating, negotiating and documenting new task orders and
changes by base level technical staff.
2. The Government not issuing enough task orders to cover the
fixed JOC overhead or not having any funding until the year-end
onslaught; feast or famine plus a rush to issue task orders...
3. The fact that one multiplier covers the entire unit price
book results in losses or windfalls on individual unit priced
items (the multiplier must include subcontractor mark-ups, too);
4. This in turn, results in reluctance (lack of cooperation) by
the JOC or inability to find subs to do some of the work.
5. Not all work is covered by pre-priced items -requiring
6. Of course, the JOC will try to get items they are losing
money on classified as a "new line item", requiring negotiation.
7. Accurately estimating unit-priced quantities for
negotiations. I believe that most task orders are lump sum, not
8. Immense competition for JOC contracts often results in
unrealistically LOW multipliers (often less than "1" - to
include all site and home office overhead, fee and bonds, etc.).
If the "successful" offerer for the JOC guessed too low, there
will be a SHORT honeymoon!
Thus ends "JOC 001"! Happy Sails! Joel
Maureen Huston on Thursday, August 17, 2000 - 05:01 pm:
Well, lots of good information,
folks, thank you. I knew I could depend on the forum regulars to
help. My main problem is that my background is primarily in
cost-reimbursement contracts (particularly CPAF). So, I am also
trying to learn the IDIQ process as well. I've moved around a
lot in contracting because I am married to an Army officer, so I
have gotten a variety of experience. It just seems that it
hasn't been in the IDIQ world. In addition, the reason why I ask
questions like this is sometimes it helps to see how other
offices manage the daily requirements of running their
contracts. Do they have a new way of maintaining info data
bases, have they found a new way to streamline the delivery
order negotiation process. So, I just try to find out what
others are doing and see if I can adapt certain processes to our
needs. Not trying to steal ideas, but I really hate inventing
the wheel all over again....
And yes, I do need to take whatever courses are out there....
On the road again.....
joel hoffman on
Friday, August 18, 2000 - 06:39 am:
Good Luck, Maureen!
Honestly, from my standpoint, I'll bet the transition from CPAF
to FFP will present the biggest challenge. Task Order
Contracting is just another way to define and order work. Once
ordered, the contract administration is pretty much the same as
any other FFP construction contract.
I will probably start a new thread, sometime, just to discuss my
experiences, the last 3 1/2 years, working on three,
(multi-hundred million dollar) FFP construction portions of CPAF
systems contracts with CR type program managers, CR type PCO's
and CR type Contractors - (companies with CR corporate cultures
attempting to perform FFP work, PM's and KO's who don't know FFP).